GOP – Trump out, DeSantis in ++ Casey DeSantis

For a man who won convincingly in the race for Governor in Florida and is being talked up as the Republican presidential nominee for 2024, Ron DeSantis is not looking overtly happy. Either the lack of a red tsunami is causing him concern or he’s wincing at Trump’s sneers.

  He’s a practical and communicative Sun Virgo in a not-always-realistic and can-be-slippery square to Neptune with an outspoken Aquarius Moon; and a persuasive Venus Uranus in Scorpio with good-for-PR Venus square Jupiter.

  Without a birth time there’s precious little on DeSantis’s chart, 14 September 1978, to suggest a triumphant surge at the moment. He has a trapped, frustrated tr Pluto square his Mars till early December alongside a confused Mercury/Neptune and teeth-gritting Mercury/Pluto; with Uranus hitting his career-loss-making Jupiter/Saturn.

  From February 2024, he’ll be raring to go with tr Pluto square his Jupiter though in for a fairly ferocious battle with tr Pluto trine his Mars/Saturn midpoint at the same time, throughout 2025 as well.  2028 will be a high point of success and confidence with his Solar Arc Jupiter conjunct his Sun.

  Trump is throwing a textbook display of narcissistic rage at being blamed for GOP failures in the Mid Terms, is outraged at being dumped by the Murdoch media and has been sneering contemptuously at DeSantis. 

 He has a dead-halt and totally-trapped Solar Arc Mars within minutes of a degree in square to his Pluto so it is exactly on cue. His Solar Arc Pluto is also moving to square his Saturn, exact in April/May 2023 which won’t have him leaping for joy either. If his birth time is accurate, by the 2024 election he has Uranus just putting a toe into his 10th with tr Neptune on the cusp of his 8th and tr Pluto on the cusp of his 6th – so his life will be facing a major transition on several fronts. He does have Jupiter moving through his 10th from May 2024 which can be successful or it can be a period of grandstanding. But he looks in shock in October 2024 with tr Uranus square his Mars; and down in the dumps over the Inauguration.

  His relationship with DeSantis which always was designed for a oneupmanship battle with a composite Jupiter Pluto conjunction is sagging badly understandably through 2023/24.

  For what it is worth – since I don’t rate political party charts much – the Republican Party, 12 October 1853, has a blocked Solar Arc Mars square Pluto now and the recent Solar Eclipse opposition the Pluto in Taurus – as they contemplate their regrets about not dumping Trump and indeed for having packed SCOTUS with right-wing ideologues out of step with the electorate.  There is also a forced-reform Solar Arc Uranus opposition Pluto now. So it does look reasonably OK as a chart for accuracy. 2024 has the Solar Arc Jupiter conjunct the Rep North Node which will help. It is not as obviously upbeat as it was for GWB or Reagan’s inaugurations but doesn’t have any majorly blocked influences either.

  Trump will continue to slide in popularity with the party through 2023 into 2024. There’s a degree of confusion about DeSantis in 2023 but overall he looks a better fit and in good fettle with the GOP over the 2024 election.

ADD ON: Ron DeSantis’ wife Casey, 26 June 1980, mother of his three children, is a former TV presenter, his close confidante on political matters and is rumoured to have ambitions to become the next Kennedy-clone family to inhabit the White House.

  She does have leadership abilities with a Leo North Node and strong, not to say dogmatic opinions with Mercury in Cancer square Pluto and trine Uranus. Her family-oriented Cancer Sun is in a lucky sextile to Jupiter. But what is striking in her chart is a hard-edged Mars Saturn in Virgo square Venus opposition Neptune (Moon) in Sagittarius. Emotionally she’s all over the place – unrealistic at one level and prone to becoming a victim but capable of giving as good as she gets as well, the older she becomes. She’ll be passive-aggressive, gritting her teeth and then letting fly.

  Her synastry with Ron is not all sweetness and light with his Virgo Sun conjunct her Saturn Mars for irritations and eruptions; and his Saturn dampening her enthusiasm as it is conjunct her Jupiter. Plus his Mars makes an argumentative square to her Mercury.

   Their relationship chart works marginally better – with a composite Sun conjunct a supportive and lucky Mercury Jupiter trine Neptune sextile Pluto – high ambition, grandiose hopes and good fortune. Though with the Sun Jupiter square Uranus it only works as long as there is constant outside stimulation and not too much 24/7 togetherness. Jupiter in Gemini at the 2024/25 election/inauguration will give them both a boost.

  Her personal chart looks panicked and undermined through 2023 with tr Neptune opposition her Mars and a Jupiter midpoint. Though she’ll have upbeat phases as well. Late-ish 2025 looks to be her glory time of supreme confidence as her Solar Arc Jupiter is conjunct her Pluto.

70 thoughts on “GOP – Trump out, DeSantis in ++ Casey DeSantis

  1. Update November 14th:

    While some House races in California remain to be decided, NBC’s latest projection for the House seems is 219-216. I think this result could shape the politics in VERY unpredictable ways, since this essentially means “insurrectionist” Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, and Matt Gaetz would be decisive votes for Republicans. It will be interesting to see if, rather than relying on them, the Republican Leadership would reach across the isle for missing votes in some key issues, because otherwise they will risk looking inefficient. This would be a very different landscape from at least the last 12 years, and Tea Party victory in 2010 midterms.

  2. @pdw Mrs Santis “is rumoured to have ambitions to become the next Kenndy-clone family to inhabit the White House” I notice she has a Sag moon, so the vibes will be quite different to Jacqueline Kennedy’s certainly with regards fashion, I doubt Camelot again but it is a different generation and perhaps reflects the enormous societal changes since then.

  3. @Virginia, Appreciate your mention of his wife’s breast cancer, and agree that this is a (scary!) trial for any woman and her family. I see that her diagnosis was announced in early October 2021, as transiting Neptune was opposing DeSantis’s Sun (conjunct his wife’s natal Saturn-Mars) and transiting Saturn was squaring his Venus. After she underwent treatment and surgery, DeSantis was able to announce the good news that his wife was cancer free in early March 2022, while transiting Saturn-Mercury (19 Aquarius) were forming a grand trine with her natal Venus (18 Gemini) and natal Pluto (19 Libra).

  4. I saw Mrs De Santis for the first time on tv. this week, and I think I heard that she has recovered from breast cancer which must have been a trial, but I also noticed her attire which consisted of a neon yellow dress, and long hair both asymmetrical, almost like a barbie doll. Perhaps she is both a cancer victim and a fashion victim, based on that fleeting glance I thought that she could do with advice on dress sense as she did look quite beautiful and looks seem to be quite important in USA politics and perhaps elsewhere.

  5. Re. DeSantis’ charisma issues, there was a great article on him at the largest newspaper in Finland today. They had interviewed anonymous Florida Republican insiders – and I actually think they have good sources there, given large and affluent American Finnish community, many residing practically at Mar-a-Lago’s footsteps (and, Trump himself has some long time Finnish born staff) – who told they felt DeSantis’ has weak people skills. He he is not connecting to people, preferring to sit on a corner with headphones on, often failing to greet people he knows. This could be why Trump told, in his Truth Social rant directed on DeSantis, that his wife (Casey is a June 26th, 1980 Cancer Sun) is running the campaign. Apparently, he is a “numbers guy” though, and likes reading reports.

    But I feel Aquarius Moon aloofness is what’s going to hurt DeSantis on national stage, because while people may like the idea of the guy, they will not like the guy.

      • The Aquarius moon made Diana the maverick she was since it was in a freedom-loving opposition to Uranus square Venus conjunct the destructive Fixed star Algol From

        From Marjorie’s earlier post:
        “Diana had a charming and people-oriented 7th house Cancer Sun and Mercury so was adept at making everyone she met feel special; and in trine to Neptune would give her a healing presence. Her 5th house Venus would also give her a radiant and entertaining glow. She was also born with a Saturn Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn/Aquarius, which for a very few individuals ties them into the spirit of the age and whose lives seem marked out by destiny. Messiahs in their own sphere, they carry the hopes of their era.

      • @Brigitte, many performing artists actually have Aquarius Moon, are amazing on stage, but really don’t give much in personal encounters. Diana was also able to work the humanitarian side of the sign. She was always at her best with people suffering and marginalized, such as AIDS patients and landmine victims.

        But a national campaign for DeSantis would mean him actually going out and fundraise, as well as shaking hands with electorate in places like Iowa and New Hampshire. This is where all GOP establishment candidates failed in 2016.

    • Very much agree no charisma! Plus he is a weak debater. He didn’t appear at ease at all which was quite apparent in the FL Governor’s debate compared to his orchestrated hand-crafted news conferences. and there are several montages of Desantis’s facial expressions of that debate floating around social media. It should make Republicans cringe if DeSantis where to face Trump or a Democrat like PA Josh Shapiro or similar with Obama style charisma on the debate stage. So it remains to be seen how well he would do on the national stage and facing the 50 states.

      • PS and then there is this 1960’s “leave it to beaver” DeSantis family vibe on full display on election night. That definitely won’t connect with the youth voter that drove the midterms.

    • @ Solaia
      Unfortunately, the U.S. natal chart has an Aquarius moon which would be a positive if DeSantis decided to run for president.

      • @Roderick, I had to look at POTUS Moons, and the last one with Aquarius Moon would have been Richard Nixon. In fact, Nixon also was an Earth Sun (Capricorn) and Aquarius Moon combination, and Virgo Rising. I seem to recall Watergate happened when Vesta, which is interesting in the US politics as a “bringer of justice” first his Moon, then US Moon.

        I guess I should look at what Vesta is up to again.

        • @ Solaia, it is funny that you should mention Nixon in relation to DeSantis.
          I see both of them as cold and calculating and overly ambition.
          Both of them used race to further their careers but of course DeSantis added bashing gays and transgenders to his list of targets.
          Both of them also targeted protesters and they both seem to have several characteristics of sociopaths.
          That’s what frightens me about Marjorie’s interpretation of the 2025 Inaugural chart that the next president will be a dictator.

    • Astrologers have written that, since the US chart has an Aquarius Moon (representing the people), the nation tends to have presidents with positive aspects to that moon. That doesn’t mean it’s sufficient; charisma – or projecting a connection with people – for better or worse, makes a difference.

      But then again, no one would have thought perpetually angry, whiny Trump has any charisma, yet his cult still adores him because they imagine that he, a ‘successful billionaire’, magnifies their grievances and is thus on their side, their champion. (I don’t recall what contacts his chart has with the US Moon, if any). And all those MAGA like Greene, Boebert, etc…, without the slightest charisma or competence, won seats in Congress using the same formula (it remains to be seen whether Boebert will retain her seat). By comparison to all of them, DeSantis is a genius and gets what MAGA wants done.

      • @ Yes, Leo was prominent in the four presidents prior to Biden.
        Both George W Bush and Trump had Leo ascendants and Clinton and Obama had Leo suns.

      • @terri, now, remember that in 2016 Trump came from a widely popular reality gameshow that had built an image of a quick, sharp, if outspoken businessman. Nothing could have been further away from reality, but people bought it.

        Now, what I hear Fox pundits say is people still like Trump’s ideas, but not all the drama surrounding him, and they are proposing Ron DeSantis as the option. Not sure if that will work, though.

    • @mephiston, I doubt this, given the inbuilt misogyny of the US politics in general and Republican Party in particular. Yes, this is changing on State level, but even white women of my generation (I’m tail end Gen X) in the US seem incredibly stuck to some frankly Victorian ideas on femininity and womens’ role in society.

      • @Solaia, I agree with you about the misogyny of American politics. I’m a boomer and worked in the gubernatorial campaign of a woman in Virginia, some years after the election of the first Black man, Doug Wilder, as a US governor.

        Women are held to a different standard in US politics. That hasn’t changed, even though that was almost 30 years ago. I was shocked at how shocked I was at the type and viciousness of the sexist attacks against her. I recall a conversation with a prominent, highly competent (and beautiful) Black woman state senator who told me she felt that state politics were far more sexist than racist. That also hasn’t changed much in many areas.

  6. I don’t know if the US ‘October Surprise’ is a consistent thing or not. But September 2024 has a fishy Lunar Eclipse in Pisces, conjunct sometimes scandalous Neptune. It is also conjunct DeSantis’ karmic South Node in his natal chart. Judging by Trump’s recent threats, something scandalous may emerge much sooner than that, and Neptune will transit those Nodes exactly in April. However, these ‘revelations’ never seem to make any difference. Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle…..

    I have a bad feeling about this man and his ambitions.

    • @Jane, I think DeSantis’ national run will be cut short before October 2024. If he runs in 2024. He is, after all, only 44. He has very young children born between 2016 and 2020. While he isn’t likely to be a present father, his wife is a Cancer Sun and Sagittarius Moon, and might even dig heels on staying in Florida for the time being for sake of their kids’ education (in general, I think DeSantis’ however misguided interest in education might be his wife’s doing).

      • @solaia
        There has been a lot of infighting between McConnell and FL Senator Rick Scott, the chair of GOP campaign, who have been at odds for months on the strategy to win back the Senate. The drama started when Scott earlier this year introduced his own plan for Republicans, if they win in the fall, prompting McConnell to push back privately and publicly on provisions levying new taxes and sunsetting laws on Social Security etc. Then, in August, McConnell said the Senate is less likely to flip Republican than the House in part because of “candidate quality,” leading Scott to publicly assert a “strategic disagreement”
        McConnell’s who has been majority/minority leader for the past 15 years view obviously prevailed.
        Given the mayhem that Trump is creating around DeSantis potential presidential bid, it is quite conceivable that Rick Scott, who is up for election in 2024 could be challenged by DeSantis. DeSantis doesn’t like Scott and they have been at odds for as long as DeSantis’ governorship. It certainly would be an easy win for DeSantis in Florida and raises his profile as he may have to wait out Trump’s complete demise.

      • @ Solaia, currently in Florida a governor can only serve two terms, but since Republicans have supermajorities in both houses of the Florida legislature I don’t doubt that the law could be abolished.

        They are already working on decreases the time to obtain an abortion from 15 weeks to 12 weeks even though it was already reduced from 20 weeks to 15 weeks earlier this year.

        That is significant abortion is basically banned in the South (pending the decision on Georgia’s so-called heartbeat bill) so is already being Florida flooded with women from Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Louisiana, Arkansas and Tennessee.

        • @Solaia. The point of my post was the at the present time DeSantis is term limited and would have to exit the governor’s mansion in January 2027 and it would be difficult for him to for president in 2028 if he weren’t currently holding office.

          Most recently in 2016 Chris Christy tried and failed.

  7. I have venus-uranus natally. Definitely nothing lasting in the relationship realm–also have an Aquarius ascendant (whether or not that’s relevant). Was married years ago, but it was brief. Fortunately, no children were brought into that messy situation. Will be interesting to see how DeSantis’ venus-uranus plays out.

    • Same, but mine is much closer in orb than De Santis. Could be financial surprises / shocks with Venus and Scorpio in the mix. Or some sort of bedroom ‘quirk’.

      • @Louisa Broad, I have this 2nd house. One astrologer I consulted when I was contemplating a major life change told me I will always find financial means to pull myself off the swamp. This has certainly been true, but I’ve always been truly careful on remaining self-reliant and worked to burnout level. And I’ve never been wealthy, although I think Capricorn Moon will help in later years (I’m looking at my granddad who essentially made fortune in his late 70’s by selling a patent and also Paul Newman with his Cappy Asc/Venus/Mercury and his salad dressing).

      • I’ve often wondered if DeSantis is a closeted gay man, based on my observations of him and his attacks on the LGBTQ community. When very young and unenlightened I was once engaged to a man who was an especially vicious mimic towards gays — whom I later strongly suspected was in denial about being gay himself.

        • @ Nicole, I agree with you.

          I’m gay and I have found out later in my life that several of the boys who bullied me while I was in grade school are now gay or at least bisexual.

          When I saw that DeSantis had Uranus in Scorpio my first thought was about the tv show Bosom Buddies which was on during the early 80s and was about two men who dressed up as women so they could live in the very nice apartment complex that was only for women.

          Also DeSantis reminds me of Billions character Chuck Rhodes who is a control freak during the day but enjoys bondage.

          I would love to know how DeSantis’ Uranus-Venus conjunction manifests itself.

          • @Roderick, thanks!

            I suspect strong hypocrisy on his part. It’s no accident that the vast majority of political folks who wind up involved in sex-related scandals are probably repressed right-wing Republicans from conservative religious backgrounds.

            At 21 I really didn’t understand what was going on with my then-boyfriend, I do recall wondering why he was so vicious and scathing towards gays. I’m sure now he was in denial. I’m not surprised the guys who bullied you were
            trying to delude themselves about their own sexuality. That’s very common.

          • @ Nicole, I found out that Pence has Jupiter in Scorpio ( to go along with his duplicitous Gemini sun) which didn’t surprise me.

            I always thought that his goody-too-shoes persona was just a façade because every time I see him it seems as if he is barely holding it together.

            I can only imagine what happens behind closed doors with Mother.

  8. I look at simple things in a chart; DeSantis’ Mars in the 12th house speaks to me of deliberate deception, and a person with a lot of secrets and hidden actions.

  9. Brigitte: I, too, question DeSantis’ marital fidelity. Marjorie says his venus-uranus in scorpio makes him very persuasive. Wouldn’t that also point to fleeting romantic relationships, including his marriage? Just wondering…….

    • I have Uranus/Venus conjunct in Scorpio. My romantic relationships are over pretty quick, yes. I know other who have this natally and they have MANY short lived marriages. I’m assuming his marriage is primarily performative.

      I’ve always known not to get married and especially not to bring children into it but I have a ton of Uranus on my natal planets. Maybe he just has the one aspect…?

  10. I seem to remember several high ranking GOPers not too happy over 2024 election.
    In reference to DeSantis feeling frustrated….besides several factors playing out I.e. Florida was hit with hurricane Nicole over the election, the investigations into the migrants flights, Trump’s threats and the congressional Dems defying history which will impact the next president as far as the senate is concerned, I do think that Trump will either announce to run either next week or early January in an desperate attempt to hold off his legal challenges including the pending SCOTUS decision on whether Congress can get his taxes. It explains 2029 looking better for DeSantis.

  11. Well, I don’t know if we traded one devil for another one more sly and sneaky after what DeSantis and Texas governor did to asylum seekers from South America sending them to unknowingly to Martha Vineyard instead of NY. Why mislead innocent people.

    American has always been known as the land of opportunity. You can come here and make your fortunes, work hard and change your life for the better. Only time will tell but I’m so glad Trump and his crew are out and I think the media created the devil and they can bring him down.

    God bless America!

  12. I’m in Washington state and I agree, Trump is burnt toast.
    What DeSantis did in Dade county was astounding to behold. I wouldn’t underestimate this guy. I wish we had his birth time. I believe he has a Saturn/Merc conjunction and I’ve understood it that these people can be remarkably capable.

    • As a Floridian I can explain…Miami-Dade has a large Cuban population who have always been Republican, combine this with the massive misinformation campaign affecting other Latin American groups like Venezuelans etc who have been made scared of anything leaning Dem would mean a Castro or Maduro like President, plus DeSantis’ own redistricting map favoring the GOP with Florida right wing and Governor appointed supreme court’s approval, plus a weak FL Dem party and low Dem voter turn-out explains most of what went on in Miami-Dade and the other blue counties. There you have it.

      • Right. DeSantis waved the liberty flag in the face of external controls- (Covid mandates, “Woke” ideology mob, LGBTQ agenda). The United States is having its Pluto revolution. A revolution is a return to a point of origin. Natally, I’m highly Uranian and I’m thrilled by DeSantis even though I’ve historically voted democrat. I live outside of Seattle and am a supporter of marginalized communities but I am not a supporter of mobs or cancel culture OR external controls which I’ve had jammed down my throat because of the culture here.

        Let freedom ring.

        • @brigitte…let freedom ring for who exactly? Since you live outside of Seattle, all I can say, with all due respect, you don’t know the reality of living in Florida and oppressive and harmful policies of DeSantis, which promote “freedom” for selected groups only, while hugely disadvantaging others, cater to white nationalism for political gain, ads full of armor of god’ rhetoric and raising the concepts of good vs. evil. In addition, an audit in June confirmed DeSantis misrepresented and lied about COVID-19 Data
          which — is reported 74,715 to date, and appointed a discredited surgeon general who didn’t believe in science.
          DeSantis is nothing more than a Yale version of Trump with extremist politics, using a subtle and intelligent kind of bigotry.

          PS. My apologies to Marjorie for this rant.

          • You’re right, I don’t live in FLA.
            Why I appreciate astrology so much is that it has allowed me to love myself and others so much more but understanding our differences and therefore, letting people off the hook.

          • @Anita.
            You are so correct about DeSantis lying about the COVID-19 Data.
            I knew he was lying the way he attacked Ms. Jones who exposed him.
            He even said that she had ‘problems’
            Why does he have to get so personal?
            He is so much like Trump that is is scary.

          • @Anita, you’re spot on about Florida! DeSantis is a mini trump with a brain. So disapointed he won. It’s going to be a rough time for freedom.
            Thank you Majorie! As always, great job. I truly enjoy work.

        • Interesting choice of the adjective “Uranian” in your post, Brigitte.

          While of course you were speaking in the astrological sense of that word, that term has been historically (late 19th-early 20th century) used to describe man-to-man love, what we would call “gay” nowadays.

        • How is reaching down into businesses who wanted their employees vaccinated and giving employees the right to sue ‘freedom’?
          Then he interfered in Disney’s personnel policies and now he wants the government to have seats on the Reedy Creek board which is the very definition of fascism.

          He has this lacky Surgeon General who spreads conspiracy theories and publishes studies that are not peer reviewed.

          My body, my choice was the motto for people who were against vaccine mandates but DeSantis and his minions want to ban transgender surgeries for minors even those who have permission from their parents.

          • -because some parents, most often mothers, have a disorder called “Munchausen-by proxy” and their children, who are defenseless, need to be advocated for. Mothers with this disorder will fabricate ANY condition in their child, in order to to get and maintain attention from the medical establishment. One of many reasons it’s immoral to mutilate a child’s genitals.

          • Yes & let’s not forget that DeSantis has a GOP super majority in the Florida legislature. They are poised to pass an abortion ban plus even more leniency on guns and AR 15s. If the FL super majority passes some of these extreme policies, DeSantis would definitely sign those types of bills because of his presidential aspirations and risk picking a fight with his party. This would make him unpalatable to the a large amount of voters especially young voters.

    • @Julie, oh, didn’t even notice Ron DeSantis’ Venus/Uranus in Scorpio, but I have this too, and in much closer conjunction with 0’10 degree orb. Essentially, one 7 year relationship and now in relationship/married for 16 years. That said, I wouldn’t have dated a guy “seriously” with this combination once I learned about astrology.

      And, it’s true that one of the famous guys born close to my birthday, Italian football star Francesco Totti, has been all over Italian press for his separation from TV starlett wife Ilary Blasi, apparently causes by his affair with a younger doppelgänger of his wife.

  13. As a Fla resident DeSatan has some shady crimes that will come to light in 2023. Trumps done. Either dead, in jail or another country offers him refuge.

      • DeSantis has a Venus-Jupiter square and I’ve never known one who hasn’t regularly and unapologetically cheated on their spouse. It’s like they have no concept of romantic loyalty. We’ll see what Donald divulges but it’s probably nothing to really hurt Rick, at this point.

        • I respectively disagree with this generalization. I have my Venus in the 12th house squaring tightly with Jupiter in the 4th, and I have never cheated on my husband. I would never think about such a thing. Before getting married, I never cheated on any of my boyfriends, either. In my life, this square shows as love for fashion, although my real profession has nothing to do with fashion. So there.

          • Aww.. I’m so sorry. It was definitely a generalization and I just really dislike cheaters. I’ll keep an open mind from now on if I see this in charts. Xo

    • @Ava, I love the (ex)Fla community here! So much insight and passion both for astrology and politics that it has always given me sense this state is not all lost.

      Otherwise, I don’t think we have to expect until 2023 to any supposed crimes by the New Republican Messiah to come into light, because GOP never cleaned the isle after TFG presidency. He has everything on everyone and is not “strategic” on using it.

    • I’ve always seen DeSatan as potentially far more dangerous than Trump because he’s intelligent and capable, but also meaner than hell.

      • Good news, this twat has all the charisma of a lamp-post, and if Biden isn’t running, I can see half a dozen Democrats beating him handsomely on National level.

          • @PC, no. Read the comments by Floridans above. DeSantis (personally, I don’t contort names, although I have to admit I find Putler funny) is a horrible person, and certainly not something I’d ever want in a politician.

          • @PC — I agree with Solaia again. Look at the man’s record of unnecessarily tormenting opponents, people whose existence he opposes, including LGBTQ, immigrants and Democrats.

          • It turns into more of a schoolyard atmosphere when contributors devolve into name calling. Your intriguing observations, when bookended by these sorts of things, become more difficult to appreciate.

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