USA – a choice to renew or drift into stasis

The USA stands on the brink, facing a historic fork in the road, with the most polarised climate since 1860. It won’t matter much whether Biden wins outright and then faces a hostile Supreme Court and perhaps Senate as Obama did, road-blocking his agenda; or Trump finagles in via the skewed and undemocratic Electoral College system. The challenge is whether a much overdue overhaul of the revered and ancient Constitution is faced up to in coming years.

  Legal brains suggest three possibilities ahead – 1) civil war; 2) the break-up of the USA via peaceful secession of various states a la Scotland’s possible exit from the UK; or 3) stagnation similar to the decline of the once mighty Turkish Ottoman Empire over the final two centuries of sclerosis.

  This prologue, above and below, is a precis from an excellent piece by Edward Luce in the FT.

 Trump’s actions have shattered faith in the idea of checks and balances and the Barrett SCOTUS nomination could light the fuse that ends in a full-blown crisis over America’s founding creed.

    Some think the third option is the most likely, as America drifts into becoming the “sick man of the west and reconciles itself to the fact that renewal is not possible. Rather than providing a blueprint for modern reforms, the constitution acts as an entrenched roadblock to change.”

  Norman Ornstein says: “If the system is the same in 2030 as it is now, America will start to fall apart.” “The US Senate is an affirmative-action programme for white, rural, Christian conservatives, who have an increasingly powerful veto over America.”  

  The Constitution, 4 March 1789, is beset by major confusion exactly now, running on from 2019 with tr Pluto square the Neptune; and continues on an increasingly disruptive track with tr Uranus throwing in firecrackers and causing upheavals in square to the Pluto in 2022 and moving on to square Venus and then the Mars in 2025; with tr Saturn dampening enthusiasm and erring on the side of conservatism – with aggravated arguments – from 2022 as it is conjunct the Pluto, Venus, Mars and then crosses over the Sun Saturn in Pisces in 2024.

  All of which coincides with the USA 1776 Pluto Return in 2022/2023 with lingering after effects.

   The Supreme Court (SCOTUS) 2 February 1790, is in a state of acute uncertainty in 2021 with tr Pluto square the Neptune from late January (till late 2022) and tr Neptune conjunct the Saturn from March onwards for a year; plus a troublesome, rebellious and defiant tr Uranus square the Uranus late this November into December and repeating next spring, and facing even greater instability and challenges to its direction as tr Uranus square the Sun after July 2021 and Pluto in 2022. 2022 is also picking up the downbeat tr Saturn in Aquarius conjunct Sun and Pluto and a high-tension Solar Arc Saturn square Uranus in 2022 as well.

   The USA First President chart, 30 April 1789 12.45 am New York, is also in for an exceptionally rough ride with tr Uranus conjunct the Taurus Sun in April and again over the New Year; at the same time as tr Neptune continues to conjunct the Saturn through into January 2022 as well.  2022/3/24 have a raft of roller-coaster difficulties as tr Uranus is conjunct the Pluto and then tr Pluto opposes the Uranus in 2023/24 which could upset the applecart.

The USA 1776 chart shows 2021 as a time of panicky failure with tr Neptune square the Mars with the hostile and toxic debates running on as tr Pluto continues to oppose the Mercury. Then the Pluto Return in 2022/23, followed by setbacks from Solar Arc Saturn conjunct the Mars and square the Neptune in 2024/25.

  It certainly fits the thought that suggests this election won’t resolve much, indeed may exacerbate tensions and strain with the liberal push for change running into entrenched conservatism. It also fits Kissinger’s thought that Trump is the kind of figure who turns up at the end of an era. A Pluto Return can bring about the Icarus-like fall of an empire which rose on the previous one and he might just the unwitting exposer of the flaws in the USA governmental system (a la Pluto in Capricorn). Given the Cancerian nature of the USA – shining a critical light on the past and revered forbears, and letting go the old traditional way won’t be easy.

55 thoughts on “USA – a choice to renew or drift into stasis

  1. You have given the wisest view I have read, I too am an Astrologer and see as you do a collective awakening happening, yes there will be dramatic changes in our social structure ( pluto from Capricorn to Aquarius) but I believe it will be to a more democratic, egalitarian society. I’m not naive there will be turmoil but ultimately a society that works better for the people and lets not forget our beloved mother earth

    • This is precisely what I am sensing regarding the shift into Aquarius and to a more ‘collective’ mentality as we will see Pluto making its opposition to the period when it was in Leo, and thus to the generation born under Pluto in Leo. Many of the elder politicians in power right now are Pluto in Leo, including our friends in the White House and Kremlin respectively. I am fascinated to see how this pans out in the coming years. Broadly speaking this is the period of individualism and self-expression opposing the challenges of climate change and environment which require a sense of interconnectedness and placing the needs of the entire planet and ecosystems above those of the individual.

    • I cast a chart for the April 6 1789 date for the Senate and it is quite interesting.

      The Saturn-Pluto-Jupiter constellation/conjunction is almost precisely opposite the natal Jupiter right now and thus also square the natal Sun-opposition-Neptune. The constellation will then move on to oppose the natal Uranus at 0 Leo around the winter solstice.

      How would you and the other interpret these?

  2. All this is difficult but taking an astrological view we have the three outer planets in play. Uranus is a great driver for revealing secrets which can thereby be an energetic driver of events. Neptune is the play and dissolution of art, talk and illusions. Pluto is the wildness and energy of nature.
    I think that much of the situation is the playing out of issues that have been long-standing , largely hidden and swept under the carpet and will not immediately change with or without Trump. It will be a relief , even if a delusional Neptunian relief to have a consistent ( and reasoned?)approach. The energies released may well be centrifugal but I suspect that the physical contiguity will keep things together – though as with most other countries a different world is emerging, possibly revealed by Science ( Uranus). We will look back at the present days with nostalgia and frustration. Certainly the way ahead will be shrouded in neptunian confusion but this confusion may help the country deal with its constitutional issues but the way ahead will not be smooth.
    The strength of the United States has been the way it has dealt with different views though it has often needed a common enemy to keep things together- think Britain, Mexico, Indians, Asians, Russians and now perhaps China.
    Specifically for the Supreme Court possibly Uranus will bring out into the open political divisions. If the court becomes more openly political then the raw energy of Pluto forces will treat it as a political body with Deleterious consequences for its authority.

  3. I don’t foresee the US going through another civil war with the Union splitting up. I do anticipate though a period of internal weakness, with civil unrest breaking out in pockets of the country, similar to the era of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Without consensus, political action becomes more difficult and that erodes the government’s ability to credibly act when needed. It’s interesting to note that this decade will be featuring the US Uranus return in Gemini in 2027 (with Mars Rx in Virgo squaring it various times that year) and Neptune ingressing into Aries the year before, both of which were present during the Civil War. Pluto will also be in Aquarius (active in the late 1700s during the Revolutionary War and the Articles of Confederation years). Given this lineup, I expect an age of civil unrest and weak central governance. But on the positive side, I foresee certain sectors of the economy thriving, especially those in information technology or neural learning. With Uranus and Pluto in air signs and Neptune in Aries, the spirit of the times will be very pioneering, innovative and progressive.

    So a lot of unrest, but also a lot of entrepreneurial action, technological change and fast moving events. That might be the saving grace of those times. A lot of people also demanding their rights and organizing through the internet and other networks. Kind of similar to the Civil War period in the 1860s-70s. The outcome of Pluto returns can be tricky to predict, but the US should remain the major global power due to the dollar’s centrality to the world economy and the lack of a credible competitor to fill power vacuums globally. What’s likely to happen is a period of weakened leadership though, which creates cracks in the broader façade of American power.

    • Well said, Andy. I’ve a colleague who is Irish; she strongly insisted that I remain in the US because of lingering tension from that era. I could be kidnapped simply because of wearing the wrong color of shirt; this is no different in Tacoma, WA where people are murdered simply for wearing red or blue in the wrong part of town. The same form of retribution could befall much of the US sans open civil war. Nothing can be done but to let the wheels of age continue to grind on.


      • @larryc, isn’t it ironic? Interestingly, many Black and POC Celebrities growing up in the 1980’s and 1990’s have come out telling they will be voting for the first time, ever, this year. Imagine Shaq who didn’t feel the urge to vote Obama in 2008, but went on Twitter to tell he voted this time.

        Something – besides early voting being 4-5 times the amount in 2016 – is telling me there will be a record voter turnout in The US this year.

    England 11 May 973 JC AD chart – Pluto Returns were 1956; 1709/10; 1463/64; and 1217/18. The Suez Crisis in 1956 was the consummate humiliation for Great Britain, signalling its fall from world super-power with the empire crumbling fast in the years before and after.

    Other examples: Spain – 19 January 1479 JC. The most recent Pluto Return around 1972 saw the dictator Franco gradually relinquishing power, nominating a monarch as successor to his regency in 1969; and handing over the Prime Ministership by 1973. He died in 1975.
    Russia 28 March 1462 JC – the most recent Pluto Return was exact when Stalin died in early 1953. Previous Pluto Return was 1706.
    France 19 August 843 JC – most recent Pluto Return in 1821 saw the death of Napoleon on the exact aspect. Previous Pluto Returns: 1577, 1332, 1088
    Switzerland 26 May 1231 JC – most recent Pluto Return joined the Council of Europe. Before that 1726.
    Austria 18 October 1221 JC – was angling to join the EEC on the most recent Pluto Return, managed it 6 years later. Before that 1714, 1468.
    Scotland March 25 1005 JC – the second Pluto Return in 1745 saw the Jacobite Rebellion crushed by the English with savage repercussions. The next Pluto Return in 1991/2 saw Alex Salmond take over leadership of the Scottish National Party which led later to its rise to power. The Pluto Return first was 1252.
    See November 18 2018 post for more detail on England.

    • @Marjorie, Sweden 1523 has Pluto in Capricorn 14′. This is one “ancient” chart that I like – Sweden has been Monarchy since, and “core” state has geograpic continuity. Therefore, the latest Pluto return was during European refugee crisis. 1770 preceded death of Adoph Fredrick and ascendence
      to throne and coup by Gustaff III. There were some singularly dark times for the country during Pluto in Aquarius – assassination of Gustav III and Regency before Gustav IV became of age. The worst crisis of this chart, however, came starting from 1808, Pluto in Pisces conjunct 1523 chart Neptune/Saturn and squaring all Gemini elements (Uranus, Mercury, MC and finally Sun) with Russia occupying Finland.

  5. Also, with the 2017 eclipse, Cape Girardeau was the point of “greatest” eclipse. For the April 2024 eclipse, it once again goes directly over Cape Girardeau (though it looks like the POGE for the 2024 is in Mexico).

  6. Steph, what I’ve noticed is that hurricanes in the Gulf of Mexico seem to keep going over it as they move inland. They get to the point where the fault is, then they turn northeastward. One of these days I’d like to run founding/natal charts for Cape Girardeau, Missouri, and Carbondale, Illinois, and see what they tell me. It’s not a geologically “typical” earthquake zone like the Pacific Rim is.

  7. Hi, Steph, when you said a likely “San Andreas” type event, my first thought actually was about the New Madrid seismic zone. The 21 August 2017 eclipse went directly over it, as will the 8 April 2024 eclipse. Perhaps eerily, the paths of these two eclipses, when placed together, create an “X” pattern over the lower 48 states.

  8. I’m reminded of a sci fi novella in which the protagonist speaks to a tone-deaf senate, “It’s not like you will hear the “ding” of a bell and all will collapse. The collapse at that point would be most unmistakeable and unavoidable.” (“Tuff Voyaging”)

    The Foundation sci fi series also comes to mind. But even Hari Seldon concocted a plan to help & guide things endure and evolve.

  9. l couldn’t disagree more. The level of commentary on this blog is extraordinarily high, and always worthwhile to scan, whether Marjorie has time to pitch in or not.

  10. Thanks Marjorie. In some ways you could say that there’s a US civil war already, although not in the conventional mould. It will be a tough time ahead, no matter who is president, as you say.

    I haven’t had time to look at a range of empires. However, the Roman Empire began in 27BCE. That year there was a Saturn/Pluto conjunction in late Cancer, with Jupiter in Cancer tagging along at the edges, so quite reminiscent with today. The Fall of Rome occurred in 476CE. That year saw a Saturn/Pluto conjunction in Leo – quite descriptive of the fall of an emperor I think. Of course, the disintegration was slow and fractured across the Roman Empire, and they left much behind that subsequent civilizations used or admired.

    • The traditional founding date for Rome was 753 BCE which was when Pluto was in Leo. Pluto was back in Leo in 504 BCE when Tarquinius Superbus was expelled and the Roman Republic was founded. It returned again in 269 BCE at the start of the Punic Wars. It was back in Leo again in time for the second settlement of the Augustan Principate in about 23 BCE . In the 220s CE Pluto passed into Leo at the end of the Severan dynasty and the beginning of the 3rd Century Crisis of the Roman Empire which saw near constant civil wars. Pluto returned to Leo in the 470s CE which saw the end of the Western Empire when the appropriately named Romulus Augustulus was deposed in 476 CE . And in case there is any doubt left Pluto was back in Leo yet again when the Empires former Christian capital Constantinople fell to the Ottomans in 1453 CE . I would say those run of events indicate that Pluto Returns played a not insignificant role in the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.

      Incidentally there are some parallels in that story with the British Empire which really came into existence with the Act of Union in 1707 when Pluto was in Leo and was dissolved in the decade after the Second World War when Pluto returned to Leo

      Given the US Pluto return is in Capricorn one can expect this fact to colour the process so I think it is less likely to do with the acquisition or dissolution of territorial empire. Despite its massive arsenal the US expression of power is not really military. It is more about political control expressed through economic and financial muscle. My guess is that is one of the areas to watch.

      • Thanks Hugh!!… my brain did a fun “twang!!” at your last paragraph! I was so focussed on the idea of a Pluto return, that I hadn’t paid as much attention to the sign! Wonderful!

        I remember after 9/11, SO much was made about the USA having the “best democracy in the world”. Even Oprah rode that wagon. It annoyed the heck out of me.. being “up here” in Canada. So that hubris about it’s special style of democracy, it’s constitution… Pluto in Capricorn is digging around in that!

        It occurs to me that there are BIG ripples of a Pluto transit in one sign into the next sign. The obvious one I keep flinching at is the ripple of Pluto in Sagittarius… fake news, Facebook et al, … the turning on it’s head of communication and knowledge. As Pluto is IN a sign, all the obvious things are noted… but the fallout, shall we say, is really seen as an strong undercurrent when Pluto changes signs. It makes me wonder.. and shudder a bit.. about what the BIG ripple will be from Pluto in Capricorn as we move to Pluto in Aquarius.

        anyways…. I am intrigued by what you have said!

        • Sandra – the US chart has a tight square between Cancer Sun and Libra Neptune. It’s a nation full of illusions about patriotism and family as well freedom and equality.

          Add in Jupiter conjunct that Cancer Sun and you begin to understand why the U.S. sees itself as “the best country in the world” while many around the world almost laugh at its conceitedness.

        • “It makes me wonder.. and shudder a bit.. about what the BIG ripple will be from Pluto in Capricorn as we move to Pluto in Aquarius.”

          Futurologists predicted, long before covid-19, that AI revolution would happen in the 1st half of 2020’s. For instance, if you look at “future reports” from circa 2015, tipping point for driverless vehicles should be happening about now. This hasn’t, obviously, happened, I think partly because investors have been betting on wrong horses. But then there is the human element: Adapting certain technologies would kill professions. When you consider trucking is currently the most common profession for men in several US States, it’s easy to see why there is so much resistance to this change.

          This is, obviously, going to affect all societies very profound way. Some, I see, will have come up with answers on wealth distribution in 2026, with Pluto in Aquarius trining Uranus is Gemini (this will first be exact in July 2026 with Pluto retrograde).

        • I have to say the role of Pluto in Leo in the history of the Roman and then Byzantine Empires quite spooked me. I went onto check a few more historically important dates for Constantinople and I found that the failed Second Arab Siege of Constantinople in 717-718 (one of the most important events in European History) and the Sack of Constantinople by Latin armies in 1204 (an event that fatally weakened the Byzantine world) happened when Pluto was in Leo as well. I find that a remarkable set of repeated major turning points stretching over 2000 years (nb I got the date of the expulsion of Tarquinius Superbus wrong as it was in 509 BCE though it makes no difference to the astrology as Pluto was in Leo on that date)

          • Many thanks Hugh, When I have a moment I will gather your pearls of wisdom and dates and put them into the main Pluto Return file.

      • And this Pluto Return in Capricorn is about conservative and fearful souls who are afraid of change and feel resentful about the present. They construct their own fantasies that fit their desired reality of the world they live in. Like those Q-anon groups, the climate deniers etc. A large chunk of the voters (according to the probes) who are inclined to vote for the GOP and this president are from low educated, low income groups who will never live the American Dream. And on an unconscious level they are aware of that. Maybe that’s why they are so entrenched in their own world views and I cannot see them change that within this generation. So these sentiments could be the driver behind the process of divergence between those States and/or groups who choose to progress and those who choose to regress.

  11. Other countries have survived Pluto returns but were downsized and lost their empires and superpower status. This happened in the 1950s to the UK during the Suez crisis when it clearly became a second-tier power while losing most of its colonies, to France the very day Napoleon died, and to Spain as well. But they could still survive and prosper by joining other democracies in the EU and reducing trade barriers. The UK is refusing to learn the lesson of its last Pluto return.

    • We all came here from somewhere else to get the heck away from somewhere else. We are used to fighting, negotiating. Until Ww2 we mostly lived on farms. Without us the Continent of Europe would be speaking German with a truce with “that” Germany. Decline? No. Stop the caretaking of the rest of the world? Yes. Pulling our manufacturing out of China? Yes. Taking care of us and letting the rest of the world be? Yes. There were isolationist forces here that DID NOT want to go into WW2. I for one would like to rebuild our country and just let the rest of the world do what it will do. My families came here in the 1600’s due to religious wars and to get the heck out of the old countries. Game is not over for USA, but getting off the world stage maybe. Then you will have to contend with China who is next. Saturn conjunct Jupiter in Aquarius….beginning of a new era and a new cycle.

  12. In 1995, the noted crime writer James Ellroy wrote in his brutal “American
    Tabloid”, the first of his fearsome trilogy about the events that lead up to JFK’s
    assassination and beyond:-

    “America was never innocent. We popped our cherry on the boat and looked back
    with no regrets. You can’t ascribe our fall from grace to any single event or set of
    circumstances. You can’t lose what you lacked at conception.”

    Trump is only a symptom of America’s pitiful decline into entrophy.
    All empires eventually fail and the USA is no exception.

  13. Uranus’ unpredictable nature can give and take on a moment’s notice, so allow some hope. The previous Jupiter-Saturn conj in Taurus is wending to completion and look at how similar some of these current issues are to 2000 onward, when the conservative-right got a foothold and has trodden toward it’s peak at this time. And not to forget how the implications of Bill Clinton’s “complete lack of morals and ethics” put the dashboard on the evangelicals’ selection of Trump as savior. Stay tuned – new Jupiter-Saturn cycle will go the other way, predicated on the events of now.

    • I mention in another post that the downfall hasn’t been triggered by recent events (aka Y2K). One person built on another’s squashing of rights and hopes. So there’s no “one person” we can blame; only ourselves.

  14. “Legal brains suggest three possibilities ahead – 1) civil war; 2) the break-up of the USA via peaceful secession of various states a la Scotland’s possible exit from the UK; or 3) stagnation similar to the decline of the once mighty Turkish Ottoman Empire over the final two centuries of sclerosis. ”

    There are also other soloutions available. Course correcting for one, albeit with effort.
    Ironically, given the amount of division Trump has sown, it is now creating the opposite effect, more and more Republicans and organisations formerly apolitical are now speaking out to promote Biden.

    And boy, Kissinger sure has some chutzpah given his major hand in the rot.

    • I would add several factors have changed since 2016.
      Primarily alot of US voters, especially Liberal voters and Independents, have become more politically aware and engaged as a result of Trump.
      They are now more informed and less naive about Social media foriegn influence/manipulation, and far less cavalier about civic duty.
      Far more comitted to vote, and not just for President, but up and down the Ballot. And this applies to traditional Republicans and Bernie Bros too.

    • The point of the arguments in the FT piece was that course correction of a gradual sort wasn’t possible given the constitutional restraints on changing the Electoral College system and the Supreme Court. Where there is no overwhelming will (i.e two thirds majority amongst already elected types) it won’t happen.

  15. @marjorie
    Would love to hear your comments on These points.
    In August you wrote
    —There will be some respite and an enthusiastic, morale-boosting Solar Arc Jupiter square the USA Uranus which usually brings relief from tension. It’ll be exact in six months but may trigger early—
    At least a small ray of sunshine in this sea of darkness?

    Also “It may be significant that Biden looks a good deal more cheerful in 2021 than Trump.” I can’t imagine Biden losing and watching the country falter would make him happy. I think Harris also looks better after late Jan. Any further input on this?

    Re SCOTUS … On Roberts you wrote —he looks exceptionally stressed in the second week of December but much relieved from late month onwards— how does this square with the court facing instability, challenges and uncertainty. It is more outward perception as in public opinion of the court?

    • I’m afraid I haven’t time to go over all of points immediately – but sea of darkness? Hardly.
      These shifts are historical and don’t happen overnight but usually gradually over time.

  16. The Civil War of the 1860s began with the first shot being fired the day Neptune made its ingress into Aries. That transit repeats in January 2026 (although it’ll be followed a few weeks later by Saturn into Aries) for the first time in 160+ years.

    Of course the Civil War was about the Southern States wanting to leave the Union to be able to continue slavery. The symbolism being a war beginning (Aries) over the rights of individuals (Aries) to be treated kindly and with dignity (Neptune) etc, etc. Black Lives Matter has been prominent this year but maybe it takes extreme action to get actual change.

  17. there are so many ways of interpreting the future aren’t there?

    It does feel dark right now.
    But as someone who has sat and sobbed in the parking lot after therapy I would like to say this.

    Don’t give up on America just yet. There are more options than the 3 you outline. It’s possible America will experience all 3 and more.

    Just as it was cataclysmic for me personally to face the enormity of my own shadow and the changes that I needed to make while mourning the lost time I had spent living in illusion.

    So for this country, America a lot of reckoning is happening. It’s an enormous undertaking.

    Ultimately some of the ideas about America that may fall away are not things that America needs going forward.

    America is an idea made up of many different parts and the greatest (perhaps at this point untapped) resource is the people.

    It is true of this whole planet and every land.

    It seems dark, it is dark, but I would not under estimate the potential for change and we just do not know what the generations coming up will bring to the table.

    we don’t even know what we may yet bring to the table.

    The darkness exposed, is the first step. The colonial vision has to be addressed and change needs to happen. Ideas about how we organize the financial system and what we value are things that need to be reorganized.

    There are many interested parties and not all of them want anything to change that would affect their power

    The truth is no one wants to feel threatened or insecure or uncomfortable in anyway that causes distress. The orderly safe life some of us have is so precious we are probably all have a lot invested in maintaining the status quo.

    so all the people who are feeling their safety threatened by unexpected turbulence are reacting in their myriad ways.

    The UK and all of Europe have to confront their own old ghosts.

    this is affecting the whole wide world. No wonder it feels as if the the planet is going crazy!

    I don’t think anyone can predict the outcome!

    good luck

    • You have given the wisest view I have read, I too am an Astrologer and see as you do a collective awakening happening, yes there will be dramatic changes in our social structure ( pluto from Capricorn to Aquarius) but I believe it will be to a more democratic, egalitarian society. I’m not naive there will be turmoil but ultimately a society that works better for the people and lets not forget our beloved mother earth

      • Am the only one to think that most people are overreacting, just a bit, here? It’s not like The US is about to face a complete socio-economical collapse akin to that of Soviet Union in the morning of November 4th. My main argument for continuity is economy: Unlike The USSR, with “real economics” that underperformed their Military Power, The US is still overperforming. There is simply too much at stake, for too many people, to let this collapse.

        Astrologically, I’m looking at Uranus here, rather than Pluto. Uranus is and continue to be in Taurus, which is an antirevolutionary sign. Last time Uranus stayed in Taurus were, intially, years of New Deal rebuilding – a truly colossal effort to “fend” revolution in The US, given how popular Socialist and even Communist ideas were in the early 1930’s in The US. The cycle in Taurus before that one was right before The Civil War in the 1850’s – more a period of stagnation than anything else.

        Also, I will point canons to defend Sibly chart giving The US Sadgittarius Rising, not
        this “almost noon” Virgo one. The expansionist, reinventionarist history of this country is simply not explained by proper and private Virgo rising (say this as a Virgo rising myself). I think there’s a definite Sadgittarius/9th house quality to American essence that isn’t explaines by one outer planet in sign. Also, John Morton, breaking the tie for Pennsylvania delegation, true to his roots in Savo Region of Finland, was *really* late by good Anglo standards of the time.

        • @solaia
          Thank you so much for your post. Sagittarius rising qualities sound a lot more like it would fit the US. Centaur, half man and half horse “shooting arrows in the sky, aiming for the stars” the overall optimistic outlook on life having a hard time with pessimistic outlooks. Eternally hopeful. I wonder if this explains explains why so many continue to fall for Trump’s message of downplaying and wishing away bad news, a continuous stream of upbeat messages incl Covid etc. Mary Trump describes the family’s adherence to Rev. Norman Vincent Peale’s Power of Positive Thinking which Trump’s father took to such extreme level that it was toxic because it left no room for expressions of what he considered negativity such as sadness, dispair, or being physically ill. The family attended the Rev.’s NYC Church when Donald was young. The upbeat worldview that Peale championed remains prevalent in the US today so much so that the late L.Robert Kohl’s counted optimism as one of 13 core values that Americans embrace.

          • Anita, well done!

            Solaia, as for you thinking commenters are overreacting: Almost everyone has made an intelligent comment that reflects astrologically-based scenarios which might happen. Your comment, too, is an intelligent scenario, reflecting your own interpretation of astrology. I think the comments have been interesting, and someone probably hit the nail on the head!

        • I use the Virgo rising not because I’m enamoured of Ascendant sign characteristics – UK and Israel are Libra rising? – but because I checked major events in US history against it and it seemed to work best. You can argue start times for ever.

        • @solaia thank you for posting this- I was starting to panic from the particularly stark (only 3) possible outcomes mentioned in the post. Actually, Sagittarius rising seems to fit perfectly- I’m thinking in particular of the 9/11 attacks and sensitive points in the chart (if Sag is the true AC). That would place Pluto either on the AC or moving from the 12th to the 1st- a painful but transformative event indeed (of course, this could fit other placements, too). I can also see the US as having much more of a Sagittarian personality- expansive and optimistic, although this would put the chart ruler (Jupiter in cancer) at the end of the 7th house using placidus- that seems to fit, too. I appreciate your post as an American- all of us being held hostage by a deranged, psychopathic, orange lunatic need a little more hope these days.

  18. Cool analysis, thanks! Are there actually any examples of empires who survived their Pluto return? There is this movie -Escape From LA- (a sequel to/remake of Escape from New York by John Carpenter) that casts a premonitory view over the USA we see today. Maybe a destructive (Pluto) San Andreas event will literally divide the country? In the meantime I cannot see this country wanting to be united much longer. I agree with option 2, but some things might need to be demolished and are going to explode before new foundations are laid down. Some states could reverse backward, while others probably will heave a big sigh of relief. Calif. probably being one of them. Could you cast an astro view on the years to come and separate states?

    • Hi Sure, the fall can skip one or two Returns but it happens more often than not – and given the way Trump has driven the USA into an isolationist corner it looks more likely to be a drift downwards, riven with internal problems in the decades ahead.

  19. I had been dreading a civil war for quite some time, even before Trump’s rise. Nowadays, much as I’d like to hang on to the ideal of ‘indivisible’, I have started to think that a peaceful separation would be best, seeing how far the 2 sides are, with no possible agreement in sight, Biden being only a ‘never-trump’ without truly meeting needs from either side other than dragging the status quo along. The key is, as always, the economy. Were it not left battered by the virus, and the tax breaks, and the govt in ever greater debt, we might reach a point where we can both have jobs and a green economy but at this point many fear the unknown and still hang on to coal, mines etc. Others are stuck on their religious beliefs. The electoral college no longer works, as the actual ‘minority’ rules. We are reaping what was sown at birth. But even a secession would be difficult geographically, with parts of the North, and Midwest closer to the South; and states are rarely homogeneous, so we risk civil wars within them. A mess no matter what.

    • @terri, I’m not basing my idea here on any serious study, but I think this “Civil War” rhetoric that had mainly existed on some fringe communities started to creep into collective subconscious in The US due to some “Conservative” talk show hosts in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s. My own theory is this was made more believable and scary by Wars in Yugoslavia – these were first Civil Wars in decades to happen in Developed Nations. I always thought, and still think, that it’s overblown, and playing on Conservative/Moderate mindset many Liberals in The US seem to have, too.

      My main argument against secession is that States and areas which oppose “progressive” ideas can’t really afford it. Their agriculture and dying industries are heavily subsided by “those damn hippies” in California and Wall Street. Ironically, these fear inducing, hate mongering channels talking about “Civil War” mainly exist on platform created by these people, too. And if you’ve notices, Social Media sites have taken a hard turn against them just in the last couple of weeks. Since I’m not exactly trusting Facebook has banned antisemite sites because Mark Zuckerberg has finally seen the light, I think they are under extreme pressure by shareholders to act in sight of Democrats taking not only WH, but Senate. They have been clear about regulating these platforms, and if they have nightmares on something, that’s Liz Warren Secretary of Trade or Treasury.

      This, IMO, will be the main struggle seen with Saturn in Aquarius square Uranus in Taurus, although I’m foreseeing further hybrid attacks on tech, too.

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