Incel – stuck in their mother issues

The worst mass shooting in the UK for a decade which left five dead including a young child and the killer’s mother, was fuelled by the misogynist Incel philosophy. Involuntary celibate men are members of hostile online groups who blame women for their sexual failings, hold nihilistic views of life (black pill) – and most hate their mothers. Just before he self-destructed, Jake Davison said on line that he was “bitter and jealous” and that women “treat men with zero respect or even view them as human beings”.

 There’s no birth date for Davison but skipping back through the recent high profile Incel mass shooters several Astro-aspects stand out.

   Of the seven I looked at 4 are Libra, two Leo and one Scorpio. The majority of them have hard Saturn aspects to their Sun, which suggests damaged self-esteem, a sense they are not good enough. Three out of the seven have Mars in Leo which may be less Incel and more they want to make a splash that attracts attention – and all of them have a sprinkling of other planets in Leo.

  There are no birth times unfortunately so Moon aspects are not obvious but don’t seem to be that relevant. Though there are three with possible Moon Pluto hard aspects, a sign of the smothering, over controlling mother.

  Libra and Saturn appear to be the standout features.

29 thoughts on “Incel – stuck in their mother issues

  1. I feel for the horrible childhood that you had Larry. Sometimes on this forum, however, people can be expressing opinions formed from their professional rather than personal experience which does not need to negate the astrological aspects. I hope that astrology is helping you to make sense of the trauma you have undergone and gives you some peace.

    • Astrology is quite helpful to comprehend the pushers and movers behind the scenes. As to why family members (or anyone) tick the way they do, it’s useful to see trends or patterns, esp amoungst the members. Will never have total peace but there has been closure over the decades. Not allowing the past to firmly rule me…is an ongoing lesson.

  2. Larryc, L would just like to say that my heart goes out to you over your childhood, and that it is sad that you felt unable to even consider having a family of your own.

    I always felt lucky to have had my son and was always determined to not burden him with the horrors of the past. He turned out to be a decent, kind and loving man. Having him was the best thing I ever did!

    I sincerely hope that your life has been a happier one than that of your youth. We all have to make our own path in life. But you don’t ever need to make the same mistakes of your abusers. I wish you well!

  3. Please everyone remember, mothers are just human. Not all mothers are perfect, but most do their best. The emotional and physical cost of having and raising children is enormous for women. Not all children are easy to parent, many are born with temperaments that do not always fit easily into their environment. Sadly l know many families where at least one child has decided to cut all contact with their parents, when they had been well cared for and loved, this and has caused unbelievable suffering and pain to their families.

  4. Maybe they kill their mum, because she is the only one who gave them the time of day but could never solve their issues. This is very fifties thinking, to blame the mother, like the ‘refrigerator’ mums alleged to cause autism back than..these guys are just wired to be violent and mum has little to do with it. Note the absent fathers in so many cases.

    • Yet there still is/are fundamental, organic reasons or causes that trigger the killing. We cannot all point to the stars and proclaim, “Aha! It’s that one!” You mention “fifties thinking”. Well, what happened in the would during the 1940’s? I’m not kicking the can down the road , of course. I was told by my uncles that my father (who never showed us affection or love) was transformed by the war. All the medal he was awarded never amounted to a hill of beans. Perhaps in hindsight, he tried to rectify what he saw and did during the war…and married my mother as a rescue (she was a known runaround woman, psychotic, bipolar, and alcoholic). That experiement in rescue ended miserably. Of five children, only two of us remain alive.

    • The mother is the primary caretaker. Why is it so difficult to grasp that dysfunction in that relationship could cause the greatest damage? Not all mothers are Mary Poppins perfect. look at that poor kid who starved to death recently having been abandoned by her screwed up mother for six days while she went off partying.

      • Everything is on the mother these days. Indeed, not all mothers are Mary Poppins perfect, in fact almost none are. If the child is very unlikely the mother may have a serious mental health issue.

        What’s different now is that children aren’t raised in communities and extended families any more, so a lot hinges on the maternal relationship. Look at Young and Wilmott’s studies of working class families in London in the 50’s and 70’s and it’s clear that that kind of community and extended support is becoming a rarity for poor children today.

        So, they look for it online, in an artificial world of echo chambers and AI twisted social norms.

        • “What’s different now is that children aren’t raised in communities and extended families any more, so a lot hinges on the maternal relationship. ”

          Certainly in 1950’s blue-collar america, the communities and extended families still didn;t exist that many imagined they would. I know; I am living proof. Many of us raised ourselves, and the repercussions don;t surface until later in life, visualised in horrible relationships, escapism, child abuse, and extremist behaviors. Few mothers those days were Mary Poppins fresh. But how to manage today’s families with messed up family histories? My cousin Diane willingly feeds her 40+ yr old son moolah to sustain his coke habit “He’s depressed and mothers are supposed to do that”. Um, say what?

      • I understand your comments Marjorie but the son here reportedly had autism. In my experience it is the mother of children on the spectrum who, because they love and will not desert their sons, spend years
        becoming increasingly exhausted as their children continually stretch and test their personal boundaries with no personal empathy for the stress they put on their parent.The mother is often unable to control the son as they get older and more physically stronger than them. So yes, I agree that there are some very damaging mothers out there, as astrology will show, but in this case I belive that it is the condition of autism and society’s inability to understand and provide the appropriate services that is to blame rather than the mother.

      • While the mother is traditionally the primary caretaker, that concept no longer works today. So will disagree strongly. You’ve performed a consult on my monstrously dysfunctional mother. She was totally unprepared and unwilling to be a caretaker at any level. My father was also equally unsuited to step-in, along with being damaged from WW2 ghosts. We all broke apart as spokes from the wagon wheel hub.

        Today, relationships and parenting are not 50-50. They are 100%-100%. All or nothing. I retain my share of demons and damage from how I was “raised”. I took steps long ago not to procreate and not to transmit those damaged genes to another human, another generation.

        We can all conjure examples to enforce our opinions but this forum is not designed for such dialogue.

      • oh my yes… the Mother.
        Mine was certainly The Scapegoat in our family…. with good reason.
        I have every right to never be in contact with my Mother again…. incredibly wounded woman, Borderline Personality Disorder. I spent the first year of therapy dealing with her.

        However, I spent the second year of therapy dealing with my Father. Where the heck WAS he?… He was in the house, he was a good father… but he totally abdicated from dealing with Mom or protecting my sister and I. And EVERYONE knew she was crazy and destructive, so this was not a secret.

        Both parents are products of terrible suffering in World War 2… and in my dad’s family.. World War 1 also. The front line in the Ukraine of both wars went through my dad’s family farm. After the first war, my dad said that his father and the older brothers retilled the land, filling in the trenches. There were body parts everywhere.

        Going crazy, disconnecting from your heart.. your humanity.. these are logical outcomes.
        There is no question in my mind that war is not the answer.

        I remember reading something about the armies of Ghengis Khan…. the writing of the time… how “there was nothing better than to rape and pillage a village”.
        In an instant… I felt ALL of the pain of ALL of the wars we have experienced…. everyone of us shares in this history. No wonder we are all in this mess!! And it feels like the ripples from that are amplifying with each generation.

        There is an older book by Scott Peck called People of the Lie. Really worth the read. (He wrote The Road Less Travelled.) It is his attempt to unpack What is Evil? Where does it start? He holds that we are each deeply responsible… that evil starts when we do not face our wounds but fob it off onto others.. or the next generation. And it’s not the glaring, obvious evil… it is ever so subtle and often seemingly nothing really.

        “the sins of the father are visited on the children”… not sure if that is a direct bible quote.. but I do remember learning that and thinking.. yup.. I’m one of those children!

        As my one friend said, “we have to stand in our shit, wiggle our toes and smell it, THEN we can deal with it and move on.”. It’s been a long and productive journey for me. I now.. honestly…. love my Mother. Remarkable.

        all the best to everyone during this chaotic times.

        • Very insightful. Thank you, Sandra.

          My mother was an orphan, adopted by a former Ukrainian farmer and his wife. Together they adopted a total of 7 girls. My mother never spoke of any happiness surrounding her Slavik roots. I think early on she was damaged goods. Only thru extensive research did I ever learn my grandfather’s name. Nother more, as he died long ago.

          I did learn to cook many Ukrainian dishes, best of which are pierogies (potato-sauerkraut) and stuffed cabbage leaves (Gołąbki) in tomato sauce. I could try stuffed peppers but never learned to like the taste of green bell peppers in tomato sauce – but one eats when one is hungry…tho I always ate the meat/rice filling 😉

          On my Italian father’s side, there was fresh seafood in the 1950’s and early 60’s at Christmas; tho I admit it took me a while to accept the taste of shrimp! But I digress.

  5. The events in Plymouth bear an uncanny resemblance to the Hungerford Massacre in 1987 by Michael Ryan which also included a matricide. It would be difficult to blame that on Incels or social media as neither concept existed back then. Similarly while Jake Stevens may have frequented misogynistic web sites there is no evidence that any of the victims apart from his mother was specifically targeted. All the other victims male or female were just people who had the misfortune to meet him on the streets. Again this echoes what Michael Ryan did in Hungerford. Stevens apparently attended a SEN school and been involved in at least one previous assault. The question in a lot of peoples minds is not why the police gave him his shotgun license back but why he was ever granted one in the first place.

    • I remember after the 1987 Hungerford massacre which left 16 dead including the killer’s mother there was speculation amongst shrinks about the causes. One psychiatrist said Michael Ryan was probably suffering from acute schizophrenia and said “matricide is the schizophrenic crime.” A psychoanalyst also remarked there were indications of maternal incest, though on what evidence I don’t know. But this was in the context of a discussion that a seriously dysfunctional maternal relationship was usually behind mass shootings – because of an inability to control volcanic rage. Ryan, 18 May 1960, probably had a Moon opposition Pluto trine Neptune. And a Taurus Sun trine Saturn.

      • Fascinating, I never knew that.

        One trait that used to only present strongly in schizophrenia is apophenia (finding meaning in random patterns), whereas these days apophenia is strong in conspiracy theorists etc.

        So while these things may have always existed, those with a mild version of this tendency in the past may have been balanced by the norms of the community; whereas now, the tendency is amplified by a very different social environment.

  6. Once again its eye watering clear that social media, including youtube needs regulating. What was once a passing thought can now be massaged into a deadly ideology with hundreds and thousands of other minds egging one another on to commit the ultimate act. It is becoming a matter of public mental health. Individual mental health is important but we need to realise that much sickness is social and contagious. Misogyny is common. The manosphere is built on that sad foundation.

  7. Thanks Marjorie. So very deeply disturbing. Such ideas, if you can call them that, existed before social media – but in common with many other contemporary “movements” it has given people a terrifying way of connecting with, and encouraging, one another. There’s also the issue of mental health, and how it is still not taken seriously, or help and support provided early enough. There are just too many reports of families trying to get help for someone, and being ignored or sidelined until it’s too late.

    I noticed that both the charts posted have tight Venus/Mars aspects. I wonder how this Venus-Mars connection got so warped?As Jo says, women do tend to focus more on personality than just good looks. Plenty of not very attractive looking people find love and friendship after all. But it seems these incel men are narcissists. I suspect none of them would be happy if a beautiful, accomplished, loving partner suddenly appeared in their lives.

    • Both Mars and Venus were in Virgo when this happened and Mercury was in early Virgo conjunct the Mars too. It struck me as uncanny, since this man was a self-declared virgin.

      • What a chilling example of symbolism VF. Mars has been square the Nodes this past week, quincunx Saturn. Perhaps this goes some way towards describing this week’s destructive atmosphere. Meanwhile, Venus has aligned with the fixed star Alkaid at 26 Virgo in Ursa Major. Arab astrologers called the star ‘The Daughters of the Bier’, chief mourners at a funeral. It has been associated in mundane astrology with weather catastrophes, and other calamaties. It has also been called ‘the destroyer of nations’. Given the literal sound of its name, I can’t help but think of beleaguered Afghanistan…..

        • Thanks for the fixed star information Jane. The ‘daughters of the bier’ does indeed sound horribly apt. There was also a tight Moon in Libra opposition Chiron in Aries that day too which made me think of wounded masculinity. Incidentally, that chart has a probable ascendant in the final degrees of Sagittarius, bringing to mind the armed centaur as hunter.

  8. Thank you, Marjorie. This terrible event as well as the Taliban’s assault on women and girls in Afghanistan have caused me to feel a sense of overwhelming despair this past week.

    As a Sun square Saturn, the only aspect to my Sun apart from a sesquiquadrant to Chiron (oh, deep joy) and yes, it does often manifest as a sense of low self-worth (my Sun is in 2nd), but as with all Saturn aspects it takes time and experience for the individual to recognise that only they can build that confidence and self-worth. Sun/Saturn hard aspects aren’t going to hand you life’s bounty on a plate, you’re going to have to work for it and that means some Saturnian heaviness in youth and struggle to find your true self. The father often cannot provide the validation or emotional interaction that the developing child needs to feel ‘unique’ and is absent – physically and emotionally. You sometimes have to learn how to become your own parent in order to gain a modicum of emotional maturity.

    One of the more shadowy Sun/Saturn behaviours is a tendency to overcompensate for lack of confidence with an overbearing egotism or authoritarianism. I can see pretty clearly why Sun/Saturn turns up in the natal charts of some incel terrorists. Mars in Leo can be horribly entitled as well as narcissistic – see Donald Trump.

    I don’t know whether this individual had Sun/Saturn (I refuse to name them) but according to reports his father was a violent thug who served a prison sentence for violently attacking a coworker and for racially abusing a member of the public. Interesting then, that he blamed his mother who tried again and again, unsuccessfully to get help for him.

  9. They really are a disgusting culture and borne out of perverse male self-entitlement. Most incels often have a high level of physical unattrativeness too which exacerbates their self-identity. They believe they only ever deserve women with perfect bodies and supermodel looks and cannot understand why they can’t attract such types. They just get ever more angry. Couldn’t be down to having such ugly personalities too, could it? I mean, women tend to be less hung up on looks and more about personality anyway. With men, it tends to be the other way round. But that is a generalization and often our culture is built on these prevaling beliefs.

    I read one horrifying story about 4 years ago. If I recall correctly, it was to do with this beautiful young woman of about 19 who identified with being on the asexual spectrum but who had a boyfriend who was asexual too. Not all asexuals are disgusted by sex (you can also be in a spectrum within the asexual spectrum itself) and many of their relationships are built first on deep companionship.

    Anyway, she attracted a LOT of abuse form the incel culture. She was tracked down and raped and murdered because they were so disgusted that a beautiful woman could even dare keep her sexuality away from a man at all. What made it even more profoundly disgusting was, even after her death, her mother was being bombarded by videos of incels masturbating over her daughter’s pictures! Honestly, I believe some people should be put to sleep for that level of psychological damage they can weild over another.

    • They actively fetishise teenagers and consider women aged over 20 as ‘damaged goods’ and ‘old’. They have a particular hatred for little girls and fantasise about killing them in the most sadistic way possible. They also hate men who are in successful relationships with women. This is dark, dark stuff and it needs to be addressed by the authorities and the forums shut down. Honestly sometimes you think social media can’t get any more ugly and depraved than it already is and then you lift a rock and find you were wrong.

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