Ghislaine Maxwell – shamed but unrepentant

57 thoughts on “Ghislaine Maxwell – shamed but unrepentant”

1. I seem to remember that Robert Maxwell’s body was never recovered. Am I right in that?

   • Was recovered and death presumed by heart attack and drowning.

2. Re comments further down here, I’ve remembered something of potential interest. In 1885, the journalist W. T. Stead published a sensational article about the exploitation of young, underprivileged girls in London. It led to the raising of the age of consent from 13 to 16. It was called ‘The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon’. Here’s a quote from the W T Stead website resource, attackingthedevil.co.uk:

   “Published in the Pall Mall Gazette in July, 1885, “The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon” was Stead’s highly scandalous expose of child prostitution. A tour de force of late nineteenth century prostitution, it exposed in graphic detail the entrapment, abduction and “sale” of young under-privileged girls to London brothels. Written in successive installments, Stead’s “infernal narrative”, as he called it, revealed to a respectable readership a criminal underworld of stinking brothels, fiendish procuresses, drugs and padded chambers, where upper-class paedophiles could revel “in the cries of an immature child.”

   The astrology of that month shows Uranus in Virgo (the Maiden?), conjunct the Nodes (the masses?), square Saturn in Gemini (the Press and the Law). We’re coming up to the Uranus/Mars/Nodes conjunction, square Saturn now. A curious coincidence?

   W T Stead himself, 5 July 1849, had Pluto at 28 Aries, conjunct Uranus (25). He’s having a Pluto transit.

3. Why isn’t anyone talking about Bill Gates and his involvement in this scandal? It’s unbelievable the person with arguably the most power and influence in the world has not been charged or questioned regarding child sex trafficking. I am curious if anyone is looking into him.

   Marj, can you do an analysis of his upcoming transits, please?

   • It’s farcical that the public are being gaslit by the powers that be in this way. There’s an internet meme that’s been doing the rounds recently — photo of a news anchor announcing, “In other news, Ghislaine Maxwell becomes the first person ever to be convicted of trafficking children to nobody.”

4. Can it be that the original trauma was Chiron’s birth and being abandoned by his mother after, in essence an orphan, lacking the care of the most important person in any baby or young child’s life. Enough to make him to long for nurture and a steady upbringing when it matters. But it is, of course, looking at things from a human point of view

5. I think she is one tough lady. $50 in five years time she will be ruling the social world of the prison and advocating for prison reform ! Curiously, whatever her ‘luck’ is, it held. She ‘only’ got 20 years instead of 30 – 55 ! The last lines of her speech were almost regal especially the darkness into light bizzo.

6. Thanks for all the Chiron thoughts – I’ll try to pull them together in essence for a standalone post for easier access later.

   • Apparently the original Greek spelling of Chiron is KHEIRON – the eldest and wisest of the Kentauroi (Centaurs) who were part human and part beast (ie part wise and part libertine?)

     The name Kheiron was derived from the Greek word for hand (kheir) and meant something like “skilled with the hands.” In myth it was also closely associated with the word kheirourgos “surgeon.” Skilled with hands seems quite appropriate in relation to massage parlours!! But even there such skills can be used to heal or to debase.

7. Hello Marjorie & everybody

   “There is an Astro-oddity I can’t get my head round – in both cases her composite relationship chart with both men highlights a close Chiron connection – which doesn’t on the face of it make sense.”

   Some notes that may serve as a point of departure for thinking about Chiron connections:

   Liz Greene says: the house where Chiron is in your chart is a place of rotten luck.

   Chiron’s mythical wound is a physical one. It becomes psychologically painful, but it was physical to begin with. Henry the VIII has Chiron in the 9th, it is the focal point of a t square formed by the opposition of Saturn on the 6th cusp and Mercury (locomotion). His Chiron –incurable wound– was the default from the friction of the opposition of Saturn in the 6th and Mercury, ruler of his ASC in the house of illness and hospitalization. Of course, the constant pain must have been depressing, humiliating, and terrifying, but it started as a physical wound.

   In our charts, Chiron’s wound doesn’t have to be psychological, nor a result of childhood trauma, all that is necessary to cause the intolerable friction and suffering is that Chiron impede progress. For instance: A boy sees himself as the protagonist of a narrative that has the following arc: “When I grow up, I will to be an astronaut and break the record of time spent living at the International Space Station. Then I’ll go to Mars”. Sadly, at 17 he develops pulmonary disease so severe that he requires several visits to the ER per year. This young guy is probably never leaving Earth. His forward motion in life is effectively prevented, derailed, by an interdiction beyond his control. This is a crushing blow, a form of mutilation of the shape he wants his life to take. No escape. Now, let’s say that he decided to become an engineer and work at NASA. He stands up from his computer terminal, proud of himself and the team, and cheers after every successful rocket launch. But each time, he wishes it was him inside the rocket. Seeing the astronauts train to go where he cannot ever go IS the arrow that this man would have to live with, trading his space in the stars with another, just as Chiron did. Substitute “place in the stars” with the place where you want to end up regarding matters in the house where you have Chiron, and you’ll see the Chiron wound. Like Saturn, Chiron denies, but unlike Saturn, which can reward tenacity with success, in the area of its domain, Chiron reminds us that NO MEANS NO.

   Also: notwithstanding the fact that Chiron was a teacher to the more gifted and powerful, he was partly a beast. One of the versions of his death has him with the other centaurs outside the place where Heracles had forced Pholus to open a sacred wine the centaurs had been saving for a special occasion. Attracted by the smell of the wine wafting out of the place, the centaurs rushed to get there to drink, and Hercules defended himself from a stampede of demi horses by shooting poisoned arrows at them. How did the wise centaur Chiron end up mixed up in this melee? This version of the story suggests that Chiron’s real wound was his being a centaur, a creature that could be subject to the needs of the bestial part of his nature, no different in that respect than the other centaurs. His presence there that night led directly to him dropping the arrow on his own foot.

   As a developing mind, the infant Ghislaine learned the value/worth of a human being from men who normalized for her both bestial urges and the commodification of poor young women. It’s not clear what sorts of personal arcs impeded the men around her from becoming normal guys, let alone great men, but I doubt that Epstein’s –or anybody’s– dream as a child was to end up running an expensive brothel and end up being disposed of as garbage himself. Men like Epstein, i.e., men with big egos who will never be a Martin Luther King Jr., or a Martin Scorsese, let alone an FDR, or an Abraham Lincoln, much less an Einstein or a Jonas Salk, or, in terms of wealth, build an empire like Rockefeller, or Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos, are often wounded men. Not being born to positively –perhaps heroically- contribute to society is a very specific type of curse for people whose charts have certain planets and aspects in prominent places. Since we can’t all invent the cure for polio, for smallpox, or fund hospitals, or be Michael Jackson or and move billions of people with our talent, or change the world for the better, by their very existence these people constantly remind us that we are not extraordinary, not chosen by the fates to stand out. If they are able and lucky, mediocre men with big egos heal this ontological wound nowadays by accumulating piles of empowering cash. Epstein hustled himself into a very comfortable existence, and I am sure rubbing elbows with important people was flattering, but in the mirror we all have inside, he was a little man whose grasp exceeded his reach. This is one of the arrows of Chiron’s: if our superego constructs a grand persona in childhood, and Chiron is prominent by placement or aspect, we may not be equal to our projections due to limitations of character, intelligence, wealth, health, and perhaps destiny. None of this is curable. The limitations Chiron brings last all our lives, probably because Chiron’s orbit crosses Saturn (time), but the effect is to learn resignation, and to be resourceful, and build a good life despite the setbacks.

   • Thank you Kat, this is very interesting. But I’d argue for more nuance perhaps, and the idea that, sometimes at least, it’s the grit in the oyster that makes the pearl.
     Reading my own chart, with Chiron and Moon in the 6th (no aspect), makes some sense but ‘rotten luck’ feels too extreme. I do have ‘wounds’ physically, from a hit and run accident I had as a young girl. The damage healed, of course, but has left many kinds of weakness, twinges, and so on. I’ve had surgery as an adult to deal with some of it. However, although I had to give up ice skating and riding horses (very Chiron?!), I turned to yoga and Pilates, and found great, lasting joy and bendiness resulted from those. It also prompted me to overcome my fear of water, and learn to swim as an adult.
     My surgeon commented that the muscle development etc I’d achieved that way had kept everything stable – various things would have failed much earlier if I hadn’t found those exercise regimes. So yes, a lasting ‘wound’ is there, but I feel it has been of great benefit in many ways. I’ve also had two near-death experiences in hospital, one due to poison (salmonella) – but neither of these held me back. In a weird way, it was uplifting to know I’d come through such a dramatic experience.
     As for other 6th house matters, I’ve been very fortunate with pets, all long-lived and wonderful companion animals since I was 7 years old. Work has been pretty good too, with some very ‘lucky’ coincidences and offers from time to time. I also enjoy working very much, and have often been happy to do quite boring or menial things just because they are useful, and earn money.
     Anyway, you can interpret this in various ways of course. Perhaps Chiron, dwelling in his wooded mountain cave, fosters a sense of ‘climb every mountain’?! I do have a great love of woods and forests, long before I studied myths or astrology.

   • Very interesting, Kat. Thank you.

     And Jane – I also have Chiron in the 6th in exact trine to my Scorpio Moon and square my MC IC axis. I live near a hospital.

     • I love it when you see astrological placements manifest in a literal way!

       I’ve just noticed something else of interest re Chiron. USA national chart has Chiron at 20 Aries. Robert Maxwell has Chiron at 20 Aries (conjunct BML 24 Aries). Ghislaine M’s Solar Arc S Node is now at 20 Aries. Ghislaine’s natal PoF is 20 Capricorn.

       I also wonder about Chiron and BML in terms of mundane astrology. UK Chiron is 4 Sagittarius in the 3rd House. BML at 26 Gemini in the 9th. Certainly suggests areas such as freedom of speech, publishing and media, and neighbours near and far? The only ‘test’ I could think of off the top of my head was Brexit, 31 January 2020. Chiron was 2 Aries, BML 0 Aries. Both opposing UK Uranus, 1 Libra. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t. Just thought provoking.

8. It always baffled be that she didn’t flee to Paris, where she was born, when Epstein died. Penalties for her crimes are not as harsh in France and there is no extradition treaty for citizens – it is as if at some level she wanted to accept the fall for generations of crime. With Saturn currently conj. her natal Pluto in the 9th, karma has arrived.

   • Correction: Pluto conj, her natal Saturn.

   • The EU has an extradition treaty with the USA and the last time I looked France was still a member of the EU.

     She would have been best fleeing to one of the following countries, which are well known for refusing USA extradition requests: Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Iceland, and Switzerland.

     I am surprised Prince Andrew is selling his Swiss chalet – it might have been a useful place of refuge.

9. It’s interesting no one brings up Bill Gates and his numerous trips on the private jet. It is rumored that is why his wife filed for divorce.

   Gates is at the epicenter of all major decisions that influence the collective. His foundations have it’s paw it’s just about every major company from media to food to pharmaceuticals. He owns the most land in the US.

   Marjorie, can you do an analysis on Gates?

   • Gates Chiron is conjunct Epstein’s Sun – a thought to ponder

     • This is a fascinating aspect in their synastry. The Sun person usually brings the pain of the Chiron person to the surface which in their case would be young women, or children to be more precise.

       Can you look into their synastry, or just Gates in general?

     • I have a feeling we haven’t seen the last of this with appeals pending

10. Watching yesterday unfold curious attitude from her brother about an appeal, as though the whole thing was nonsense and could be sorted!

    • Probably the only way he can cope with this – denial. Also, what about all the unanswered questions in this case? All the other people who were involved on holidays, parties etc? The seized computer files, the money, the other facilitators, and other men who ‘enjoyed’ massages and more? GM is deeply unpleasant and blameworthy, however – she didn’t do all of this all by herself. It’s just possible a deal lies ahead, which may shorten her sentence.

      • The public are asking this question, Jane. I can only think that the power these men have means they will get away with it. We do know that Clinton travelled on the ‘Lolita Express’ more frequently than other ‘clients’.

        • Apologies to Marjorie – should have said ‘allegedly travelled…’.

        • Yes, VF, I think you could be right about that. Still, things continue to stir in France in respect of the French model agent Gerald Marie. Unfortunately, his associate Brunel, who did send girls to Epstein, has died. Also, no date of birth for Gerald Marie, although year is probably 1950. He is also involved with recently reported allegations about the murder of Jill Dando. Perhaps Pluto in Capricorn’s last hurrah before reaching Aquarius will shake things up a little more. All we see at the moment is the tip of an enormous iceberg.

          • It’s very odd that G Marie and JL Brunel have no birth dates. Someone in France must have them. In Brunel’s case it would be on his charge sheet.

          • I agree Marjorie. It is odd, perhaps it was vanity on their part in the beginning? Keeping ages a secret? G Marie’s age must also be on his marriage certificate? I don’t know much about the intricacies of French law.

          • The French are obsessed with birth dates – you get asked about it at cash registers – so is odd. If it were UK I’d look up their companies records but I tried and its incomprehensible on the French gov website.

      • Perhaps that’s the plan to get her to ‘sing’.

11. I am still into the transformation of polarities or opposites, the one into the other. Applied to Chiron, it would suggest that healing powers are a direct result of deep spiritual wounds – maybe in the case of GM the issues are of low self-worth and feelings of inadequacy. If so she now has the potential to use this as a source of strength and growth, for profound spiritual healing for both herself and others.

    It seems to me that GM chose girls who had the same feelings of inadequacy as herself. But did she deliberately set out to lower their feelings of self worth further, or did she misguidedly believe that the lifestyle she inducted them into would enable the girls, as well as herself, to assert their sexual power and control over men?

    There are many examples of men sent to prison who have used experiences there for good. Jonathan Aitkins and John Profumo immediately spring to mind – though their offences were not so obscene as GMs, their public humiliation was as extreme. GMs transformation has only just begun and prison would seem to be the best place for it to take place – though it is not the best place for everyone. I actually hope she will eventually be redeemed, in the Christian sense of the word. .

    • Perhaps she purposely chose these girls because of their vulnerabilities? Isn’t that the usual story in sexual abuse? Surely all the power is held by the abuser not the abused?

      • I don’t know. Here in Yorkshire we have had problems with older Asian men and teenage girls. From all accounts the girls were willing ‘victims’ and actively sought relationships with the men involved. It took a long time, and being passed around an awful lot, before the girls understood the depth of the abuse.

        Even the social workers and the local police thought the girls were willing participants (climbing out of their bedroom windows etc and failing to return home at night) though, as professionals, they should have been more proactive in stopping what was happening. I am not sure what they could have done – short of locking them up.

        The girls certainly felt empowered initially, and indeed Guiffre herself apparently ‘bragged’ about her conquest of Prince Andrew. But then that is how ‘grooming’ works – money, presents, attention are very seductive.

        • Sounds a bit like victim blaming here Liz. Those girls were young and vulnerable and for whatever reason looking for ‘love’ and attention. They needed protection and the system badly let them down. That sort of attitude, which was roundly condemmed by fellow professionals in the end was the reason this exploitation continued for so long and why there was such a scandal.

          • Just to make it clear to anyone reading, the Asian men involved were eventually sent to prison – the first is due for release any time. Apparently he had dual nationality but has recently renounced his citizenship of Pakistan so he can’t be deported.

            The discussions regarding the attitude of the local police force and social services (some of the girls were in care) are on going. No one has been brought to book over the events though, as you say, some officers have condemned the unprofessional behaviour of colleagues.

            I agree with you, and others, that the girls should have been protected. However this can be very difficult if and when they are busy rebelling against their backgrounds and circumstances in life and rejecting all authority figures. In fact part of the problem was the way the Asian men involved encouraged that rebellion, justifying it in the girls’ minds. So sad isn’t it that the girls initially saw the older Asian men as their protectors rather than and/or against the police or social services?

            I am not condoning or judging – just trying to understand. The abuse was widespread and it was almost impossible for one or two out of scores to make themselves heard and believed. As for victim blaming, most of it came from the wives and families of the men – and indeed from female as well as male social workers and police officers. Furthermore, racism was an issue in the local town at the time and any allegations against Asian men were often dismissed as racist. Even now the situation is often put down to a ‘culture clash’.

            I do see parallels with the Maxwell/Epstein case. Who would believe young girls from deprived backgrounds against wealthy and powerful white men? Though no racism involved here interestingly.

          • I have heard every excuse and rationalization known to man about under-age sex.
            Thoughts to keep in mind.
            It is AT ALL TIMES the adult’s responsibility to maintain boundaries. Full stop, no equivocation. End of argument.
            Under-age girls (or boys for that matter) who throw themselves at abusive adults generally become from abusive backgrounds so their self-esteem is already damaged or destroyed. With feelings of extreme worthlessness they may reckon that prostituting themselves is as good as it gets. That only applies to those who appear to ‘volunteer.’
            Keep in mind that the paedophile’s standard defence is always ‘they wanted it.’ However you splice it, all are coerced/groomed/forced into it.
            Other argument worth pondering – your 10/12 year old nephew wants an AK-47 for Christmas or a Lamborghini – do you give it to him? NO. He may think he wants it but he can’t handle it.
            Evidence from underage boys who were dazzled by the attraction of being seduced by an older woman is that the experience/relationship was damaging to their later relationships and self-esteem. Ditto underage girls.
            Children deserve a childhood and that means letting their development as immature sexual beings be allowed to progress in a child-like way – and not revved up prematurely by adult interference. Especially by perverse creeps.
            The culture clash is an additional problem since certain areas of the world are still back in the dark ages with girls of 13 and younger reckoned to be marriageable. Not only is it barbaric, it leads to huge problems with maternal mortality when they are forced into early pregnancy before their bodies can cope. [See the novel Cutting for Stone by Abraham Verghese.]
            It should be an crime of zero tolerance. Sigh. There are no excuses for the adults.

        • Liz – those girls were underage. Some as young as 13. The men were adults, some as old as 50. Some girls were living in children’s homes.The clue is in the name! Some girls did go to the police, and were ignored. Some professionals fought very hard to be heard or believed. I think the responsibility for what happened in so many locations lies with the adults, not those they chose to exploit and harm.

          • I heartily agree with you Jane, and I was posting by the way, Liz, as a former social worker.

          • Trish/Jane. Where have I said differently? I speak as a former teacher and counsellor who has had to deal with the heavy handed attitudes of Asian families towards their daughters as well as very troubled ‘white’ teenage girls who thought underage sex was ‘normal’.

            I have my own reasons to condemn the misogyny within the local police force (it is also rampant outside the Met) and the blaseness within the local social services department (no disrespect to you). I just think these issues have to be viewed in their widest context and in respect of local social mores. Why did the girls think sex was OK from the get go? Where were the mothers (I don’t say parents because fathers were largely absent)?

        • Liz in response to your latest – there is no wider context – read my response to Trish.

          • It depends whether you consider moral values to be absolute or relative. That being said, I have never questioned the need to protect children (particularly from themselves), only how it can best be achieved. No good burying our heads in sand.

            BTW I do think immigrants should adopt the social mores of the host nation and am deeply saddened and concerned when they don’t. Diversity has it’s limits.

12. Baby boomers & “The Wounded Father” Image
    In his latest weekly blog, WolfStar says…”Like all baby-boomers, Deen was born with a Saturn-Chiron square, which represents the “wounded father” image. In her case, Chiron is at 7 Scorpio, which happens to conjoin the USA Scorpio Ascendant. The discrimination lawsuit was filed last year as transiting Saturn first passed over her Chiron, initiating the claims against her wounding, racial slurs. Over the last month Saturn has returned to Chiron, forcing her to address her transgressions, while the zodiacal location of her Chiron makes it a national story.”
    Most of us on this forum are baby boomers so I thought it interesting to look at my own chart which has a Saturn-Chiron square and thus a “wounded father” image.
    Using Solar Fire and a biwheel with transits on the outside, I rotated the outer wheel backward thru’ time to places when the trans Saturn was conjunct, square, opposition my natal Saturn-Chiron square. Sure enough, when my trans Saturn opposed my natal Saturn square Chiron, my father was wounded in a gas explosion, suffering severe burns to the hands. I had a naughty transgression personally against an older father figure when my trans Saturn squared my natal Saturn-Chiron square.
    If you have Saturn-Chiron square in your natal, you might want to rotate the biwheel back in time and check your “wounded father” events.

13. My general thought is that her father died at her 1st Saturn return which was an opportunity to get out from his clutches and rebuild. She didn’t do that and at her 2nd Saturn return, all the stuff involving Epstein brought this.

    Her nodes are an interesting though because on the surface it feels like she went off an lived the glamorous lifestyle of her Leo north node. But it is in the 4th house, and I think she was living a 10th house socialite lifestyle. Again, her chance to change came at the death of her father as transiting Pluto was squaring from Scorpio in 1991.

    Trouble is her chart doesn’t have much flexibility in it – 6 planets in earth, another 3 in fixed. Add in being rich, beautiful and going to Oxford and there really isn’t scope for self-growth.

14. Thanks Marjorie. This whole sordid story sometimes seems like fiction, probably because of the wealth and privilege involved. What you say about the Chiron connections is so thought provoking.

    “There is an Astro-oddity I can’t get my head round – in both cases her composite relationship chart with both men highlights a close Chiron connection – which doesn’t on the face of it make sense.”

    I’ve long wondered about the astrological Chiron, and the “wounded healer” interpretation. In the ancient myths, Chiron is a wise, just teacher – teaching many of those mythical Greek heroes including Achilles, and Asclepius, god of medicine. He teaches hunting, music, medicine, gymnastics and prophecy. The terrible, and accidental,wound he receives means he chooses to end his immortal existence, because of the pain. Zeus then places him into the constellation Sagittarius (Centaurus). He’s the grandson of Ouranus (Uranus), and the son of Cronus – Saturn. Most of his life was dedicated to teaching and mentoring those who became famous, and he chooses death himself to escape pain. Our astro interpretations focus on the wound and the healing, while we more or less sideline his range of skills, wisdom, and sense of justice.

    One possibility here would be Chiron representing GM’s father and Epstein – whose lives both ended mysteriously, with the strong possibility of suicide implied in both scenarios. Perhaps, too, they were her ‘teachers’, in the most dark and twisted sense?

    What I’ve noticed in charts is that sometimes aspects to Chiron by transit etc act as a timer or catalyst for significant events or realisations, not always painful or unpleasant ones. This works with the ‘grandson of Uranus’ theme, while what you could call the ‘timing theme’ works with Saturn as his father. The astronomical Chiron orbits between Saturn and Uranus, and is possibly some kind of comet, rather than an asteroid or minor planet.
    It’s discovery chart (1 November 1977) has Chiron at 3 Taurus, wide trine to Saturn (29 Leo) and opposition Uranus (11 Scorpio) and the Sun (9 Scorpio). The chart has Sagittarius rising, with a Libran MC (Placidus).

    Anyway, I shall continue to puzzle away at this! I’m just not satisfied with ‘wounded healer’…..

    • My understanding has always been composites are a chart of the relationship. They show the two people function together, how they are seen by others (10th) etc. But neither of the individuals can be seen in the chart itself or is represented by specific planets. Based on that, the Sun-Chiron in the Maxwells’ chart simply suggests a painful, difficult relationship.

      But I stand willing to be educated on this.

      • Yes, GD, you’re right about the composite! I kind of widened the Chiron theme out a bit, as it has long puzzled me – because of what I’ve observed in various charts, including my own. My post is playing around with ideas really. Interesting, too, that GM and her lawyers chose to portray her as a ‘victim’ of these two men. Certainly, that works for her awful father. However, as an intelligent, well-educated adult, she made some terrible, cruel choices that damaged others, probably for the rest of their lives.

        • Chiron can also represent the outsider too. Maxwell sr came from a poor Jewish family, many of who were killed in the Holocaust, who then went on to become a war hero to the Allies, eventually achieving his meteoric rise.

          There’s a certain journalist whose chart that has a Yod on Chiron in Gemini and he tends to write about, and strongly identifies with marginalised people.

          It can be connected with health issues as well as outsider energy. My neice for example who has Sun/Chiron conjunct in Scorpio who grew up with a debilitating childhood spinal condition which meant she sometimes had to use a wheelchair and was horribly bullied at school.

          The synastry I have with my partner is full of Venus/Mars and Chiron connections (my Chiron is heavily aspected) and despite coming from completely different backgrounds, we have very similar childhood wounds. I wonder if this might be another interpretation of the GM/Epstein Chiron contacts?

          • Thanks VF, and Nicola, for the insights. Chiron as outsider makes sense too. He’s been depicted in Greek art as having a whole human body, including legs and feet, with the centaur’s horse part stuck on at the back. Not depicted like any of the other centaurs in fact. His fatal wound brings about the end of his life, but doesn’t define all of it – he has spent years in his forest cave being a famous, wise, gifted teacher. So I feel it’s complicated, but haven’t reached any conculsions. How does this potentially synthesise Saturn and Uranus – with the minor planet/comet Chiron orbiting between the two planets?

            The health issues are relevant I think. A dear friend of mine had a neurological condition that meant she was disabled for much of her life. A Sagittarian stellium, she had Sun/Venus/Chiron square the Nodes. However, there’s also a Mercury/Saturn/Uranus t-square.

            As for GM/Epstein’s composite Chiron – it does suggest Saturn/Uranus in some ways. Both made themselves ‘outsiders’ morally and ethically, and restricted the lives of others by wounding them. Here’s part of Munkasey’s Saturn/Uranus midpoint ‘anti’ interpretation:

            ‘sudden indifference by people to tradtional mores or laws’

          • And as a PS: Ghislaine M’s natal Uranus at 0 Virgo opposes natal Chiron at 2 Pisces. Her Black Moon Lilith at 6 Virgo is conjunct Pluto, 10 Virgo – the maiden Persephone in Hades, Pluto’s bride, and so on?

          • One of the things that strikes me regarding Chiron’s mythology is that he was conceived when Cronos/Saturn pursued the Okeanid Nymph, Philyra, was almost caught in the act by his wife, Rhea and then transformed himself into a horse to escape detection. So when the infant Chiron was born half human, half horse, his mother was repelled by his appearance and thought him ugly and through shame, rejected him outright. He was then adopted by the god, Apollo who taught him medicine, Astrology, music, the lyre, medicine and prophecy. Apollo’s twin sister, Artemis, trained him in archery and hunting. Chiron teaches the youth – the young Achilles, Theseus, Peleus, etc and in fact there’s sometimes that sense with Chiron that you can help and heal others, but not yourself. And with the pain of being rejected by his Mother, there is often a sense of never being good enough.

          • Both Maxwell and Epstein has Mars Pluto fathers – bullies. Though I don’t have a sense that there was an affectionate/sympathetic resonance between them.

        • I went to school with Ghislaine’s oldest sister, Anne, the one who’s rarely mentioned in any stories about the family. By all accounts she was greatly demeaned and ridiculed by their father, told she was ugly, stupid and incompetent, though in fact none of that was true. She was in fact exceptionally bright and an academic achiever, but very awkward and distant from most of the other girls at school. She held herself apart, seemingly conscious of her wealth and position, but she and I hit it off. I was once invited to tea at the family home next to our school.

          I always had a sense of great pain in her. I wasn’t surprised that she essentially dropped out of the family, taking her husband’s name when she married and becoming, I believe, a therapist and Montessori school teacher. I’ve often wondered how she’s doing but totally lost touch with her after school.

          • I was surprised that GM had sisters (only noticed yesterday looking at press coverage). It’s impressive that they have been attending the trial. So, some credit there.

15. Anothe Gemini rising woman who never had a child. I’m sensing a pattern here.
    Is there anything to this Marjorie?

    • I’m Gemini rising and have never been pregnant. However, one of my stepdaughters is also Gemini rising, but has 3 children. SD’s moon is in Gemini/1st house, though, which could conceivably suggest motherhood as a badge of identity.

      • @TrisKit: Ok. I’m curiuos so I’m gonna ask personal queries. Is it a case that you were never interested, or you needed to be sure that your partner was your soulmate or very close to it to have a child with them?
        I’ll understand so no problem if it’s too personal to answer.

    • Gemini rising can have Capricorn on the 8th house cusp giving it a fear of sex and intimacy. I suspect in Maxwell’s case, she was using the girls as a strategy to avoid having to get too close to Epstein herself.

      • Could Capricorn on the 8th house cusp have a restrictive influence, as in he was not interested in her, so she had sex with him through providing him with young girls, whom he was clearly much more into. That would align well with her Neptune (fantasy) in Scorpio (sex) that trines his Uranus (bizarre) tastes in cancer (home, where the crimes mostly took place).
        Does his Uranus opposition Chiron translate to his unusual/self-serving tendencies causing pain for women (the squared moon in Aries)?