In the midst of the terrifying carnage and the moral quagmire of the Palestine problem there are some savage ironies. Today’s news carries the story of a Gazan, her home reduced to rubble, one of the 340,000 displaced. “Where should I go now?” she said. “I am homeless.”
Yesterday Daniel Finkelstein in The Times wrote an equally anguished piece relating how after World War 11 displaced Jewish people equally had no place to go. His grandfather had previously argued against the Zionist project because he thought there were too many Jews in Europe to fit into such a tiny area and peace with Palestinian Arabs would be hard to come by. After the death and displacement of millions in the 1930s/40s, he became a pragmatic supporter of a state of Israel because it seemed the only answer to the question of – where do we go now?
Finkelstein writes: “I understand why the Palestinians did not want to share the land. But like my grandfather in 1947, I cannot see any choice but sharing. And while sharing is rejected by the Palestinians I cannot see any choice but to resist — stubbornly and absolutely and, when necessary, with force, even great force. For Israel must be defended. Where else are we to go?’
Two irreconcilable tales of anguish. As James Cameron wrote: “a sick and sorrowful conflict, not between right and wrong, but between two forms of right and, maybe two forms of wrong.” (see previous post). Though the argument from an Arab point of view was and is that the Palestinians were not to blame for the Holocaust or displacement of the Jews. The Saudi king of the time thought the answer was simple – hand Germany over to the Jewish people.
In the here and now, two considered voices try to see a way ahead that might limit the damage. Both caution Israel not to fall into the trap set by Hamas’s atrocities by lashing back. William Hague writes that Hamas want to start a war ‘so intense that it spreads, igniting an explosion of violence in the West Bank and bringing in Hezbollah from Lebanon in the north, with Israel fighting on multiple fronts. To see so many Palestinians killed that the Israelis lose the moral high ground of defending themselves against mass murder.’ ‘Essentially, to bring down the ceiling on the whole region, including themselves and the people for whom they claim they are fighting.’
Colonel Tim Collins echoes the point. To Hamas ‘civilian Palestinians are nothing more than human sandbags to be sacrificed at will. The group’s goal is not to defeat its enemy in traditional combat, but to ensure enough innocent Arab lives are taken, over a sufficiently long time, that the screams of protest from the international community become deafening.’
He argues that Israel could strengthen its standing on the international stage by launching limited ground incursions at specific targets and “crucially, encouraging the Palestinian political party Fatah, which previously ran Gaza, to take back control from the terrorists of Hamas. Most Gazans are fed up with Hamas’s vicious paramilitaries, whose fanatical anti-Semitism and corruption have left the territory in a state of devastated economic neglect.” “The overthrow of Hamas by Fatah, backed by Israel, would be a step forward for democracy in Palestine – and would isolate the theocratic Iranian regime which has long bankrolled and armed Hamas.”
Fatah, initially started on 10 December 1959 in Kuwait with Yasser Arafat as a co-founder, has in recent years been overshadowed by Hamas. Though they have retained control of the West Bank and the refugee camps. Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority, is the chairman of Fatah and generally considered a lacklustre leader.
Both his personal chart, 26 March 1935 and his Presidency chart, 15 January 2005, show signs of major disruption and upheaval. He is a Sun Aries with Uranus in Aries opposition Mars in Libra (catching this week’s Solar Eclipse by close conjunction) and squaring onto Pluto. Although a revolutionary by nature he is also overly controlling. He looks to be running into a dead-end soon with his Solar Arc Pluto conjunct his Mars and tr Pluto is also square his Uranus in 2023/24 which will upset the status quo.
His Presidency chart is confused and undermined exactly now with SA Sun conjunct the Neptune; with a SA Uranus square Pluto rocking the boat of his administration violently – maybe terminally so in political terms.
The Fatah chart itself is hitting the jolting tr Uranus square Uranus this year and next, hinting at a need to revision for the future. The Solar Arc Jupiter opposition Uranus by 2025 could suggest a lucky turn of events.
The Fatah/Hamas relationship chart has this week’s Eclipse conjunct the composite Uranus for a major shake-up. With serious arguments from mid 2024 onwards and an erosion of the ties-that-bind from 2025 onwards.
I’m reminded of the message in the novel ‘The Chocolate War’ by Robert Cormier.
-If you’re going to break the system, make sure you succeed or else the system will break you. -Hamas signed the death warrant for Gaza City’s inhabitants, at minimum, and Gaza will cease to exist.
Brigitte, What an oddly insular view of the world you have.
On ‘homeland’ issues I suggest you go read your history books – the UK and France entered the war to combat Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939. International cooperation exists to prevent (on occasion) the bully boys.
As to the UK ‘not having a clue’ about civilian deaths on home soil – the IRA bombing campaign on the UK mainland? And numerically, World War 11 when nearly 70,000 civilians lost their lives in bombing raids.
Most of the people who experienced WW2 bombings in the UK are dead or nearly dead.
Let’s revisit this post in a year and half after England has experienced its largest attack in history from radical Islam. The sanctimonious “love and light” crowd will have changed their tune.
I think Bibi and the gang are delighted at the opportunity to obliterate Gaza.
The Palestinians have had 70 years to behave and have abandoned 26 different peace agreements in favor of violence towards Israelis. There is no such thing a “homeland”, for anyone. The only thing that exists is power, in reality. You either have it or you don’t. The United States and Israel have the 1st and 2nd most lethal militaries in the world. Israel will obliterate Gaza.
Bibi learned too well from the Nazis while America hired them for its own rocket programs.
What a bleak view. No such thing as a homeland – Tibetans?
If the Israeli government/army obliterate Gaza, anti-Semitism will explode around the world, as indeed it is already doing so despite many Jewish people being anti Netanyahu.
If the Jews or Palestinians or Tibetans have a right to a homeland, do Europeans also? The reality is, no one is entitled to a homeland. They can maintain one if they have power, but only power is real. A homeland is an illusion.
Very bizarre statement to say the least. But of course you will say that to defend your point of view given the history of the native American Indians and the American story.
Sad that there are many who still think like you in 2023.
Nothing learnt and not open to learn. This is why we are where we are today when all the bubblegum superficiality is removed.
Obliteration of an open air prison with phosphorus munitions and the rest. You say it with a sickening sense of pride and validation
I live in a very different part of the world, the Pacific Northwest Coast. The idea of people identifying with a religion or nationality so intensely is a sign of mental illness if you ask me. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
are you canadian or an oregonian? you sound pretentiously like a native oregonian.
I’m from rural Utah but live near Seattle.
I survived 9/11. Until you’ve had radical Islam attack you or your home, you probably can’t relate and I understand. I’m assuming most of Marjorie’s audience is in the UK. Similar to all of the young people in the U.S. protesting Israel on their college campuses, the average Britain hasn’t a clue. A random stabbing here and there is not the same as a large scale attack. I envy your naïveté and wish I could reclaim my innocence.
You have been traumatised by 9/11 and we get that. So your perspective is warped, and you only see your reality of the world, and no one can tell you different.
You need to attempt heal.
One love
Disclaimer, we all were affected emotionally and mentally by 9/11 wherever in the world we were versus those actually in that experience. So not taking anything away from that.
I totally disagree with this observation – it actually comes across as a bit conspiratorial.
The international community would not stand by and allow that to happen. I don’t even think majority of the Israeli people would allow for that to happen.
uh huh. I’m glued to the television to see “who wins”.
Israel has already dropped 6,000 bombs on Gaza in 72 hours and then made a statement that it had “just begun”. Gaza is 21 square miles.
The fog of war. As much as can be gleaned from the net today.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/11/real-or-fake-verifying-video-evidence-israel-and-palestine(Beirut, October 12, 2023) – Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today. White phosphorus has a significant incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire. The use of white phosphorus in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, magnifies the risk to civilians and violates the international humanitarian law prohibition on putting civilians at unnecessary risk.
***
Palestinian group Hamas on Wednesday rejected widely spread claims that its militants had beheaded children during their surprise attack on Israel. “We categorically affirm the falsehood of the fabricated allegations promoted by some Western media outlets… the latest of which was the claim of killing children, beheading them, and targeting civilians,” Hamas spokesperson Izzat al-Risheq said in a statement published on the group’s website. The Israeli army’s claims that Hamas had beheaded men, women and children were carried in news reports by many international media outlets, despite a lack of verification.
***
U.S. President Joseph Biden had suggested on Wednesday that he had seen images of children beheaded by militants. The White House later clarified that U.S. officials had not seen any evidence of this. Netanyahu has not repeated a claim by his office earlier this week that Hamas had indeed cut off the heads of children, nor did Gallant repeat that accusation to NATO ministers. But medics, international human rights organisations and journalists have documented that militants killed women, children and the elderly as well as young men and soldiers in their rampage.
Thank you Marjorie. More hell unfolds. I noticed that the UN (24 October 1945) has 20 Aries rising, square Mars 23 Cancer and Saturn 24 Cancer – right on Pluto for Mahmoud Abbas’ chart. Tr Mars has just entered Scorpio, to conjunct the UN Sun at 1 Scorpio in the 7th house of alliances, and open enemies. Faint hope is supplied, perhaps, by tr Saturn in Pisces making a trine with UN Sun, and Cancer Nodes at the moment. A sense of history and purpose might be energised by tr Mars, briefly.
As usual, initial reports are way off base. “Oh, it is Iran’s fault…!” OK, show me the evidence. “People were beheaded!!” OK, show me the proof.
Should I retreat to the television and Fox News? Don;t think so. Israel will regret this forever…and neither will the world forget what’s about to happen.
Where does one put 1.1 Million people? A tardis? Dr Who…where are you when we need you?
@larryc, there are very reliable eyewitnesses following Hamas channels confirming vids on beheadings do, indeed, exists. Maybe not of babies, but very young boys. These are people not siding with Israel and condemning Government’s actions in Gaza.
Solaia, I won;t argue that somewhere the evidence exists. Blanket claims are the first to be broadcast – like the notion that the Wagner leader’s plane was shot out of the sky by a missile.
Be it as it may, I’ll restrain from making further posts to reduce social inflammation.
“https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/13/media/israel-hamas-claims-reliable-sources/index.html”
There is no doubt that atrocities were perpetrated by Hamas who ran amok when they ran into unexpectedly little resistance from Israeli security. But there is also no doubt that misinformation spreads like wildfire.
And while violence is never an excuse for more violence what is worth noting is that the killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers reached an all time high last year.
An eye for an eye – and everyone loses.
Majorie,
My late father was a very well-read man, and once said to me about the endless strife between Isreal and Iran:-
“It is a wound that never heals.”
@Brigitte
“I’m assuming most of Marjorie’s audience is in the UK”…. the average Britain hasn’t a clue“
That is a huge narrow minded, and I might add judgmental assumption on your part. —If you have spent any time on this forum over the years you would be able to conclude that Marjorie’s audience is from all over the world.
@marjorie
“The first casualty when war comes is truth”
Hiram Johnson (1866-1945)
Finkelstein’s “anguish, the “considered” opinions of Mssrs. Hague and Collins, and Biden’s begrudging expression of concern for collateral damage – all exemplify the typical colonial/settler arrogance of power, which they attempt to cloak with sanctimonious moralizing about how their selfish ends justify disproportionately-lethal means. Invaded, conquered peoples MUST share their property and if they don’t, the invaders are somehow morally justified in using force to keep their ill-gotten gains? Really? In whom does such sophistry invoke anguish? Palestinians, like First Nations peoples, don’t mind sharing – but they do mind being robbed, murdered, humiliated, starved, deprived and incarcerated by the people who took their land by force.
“Freedom was still possible at the cost of leaving behind peace” – twas ever thus….
I did not realise that Mahmoud Abbas was so old. 88 years old.
Perhaps the difficulties you see in his chart are about him reaching the end of his natural life? Followed by a power struggle over who succeeds him?
With the nonstop broadcasting about murdered babies and decapitated children, Gaza has rapidly become another Vietnam evening news report. All of which were designed to advertise how effective the ARVN and US could stack up body counts, hooches destroyed, and VC killed. It’s become all too familiar.
Don’t forget Gulf War I, with the report of Kuwaiti babies being ripped off respirators by the evil Iraqis – a story that was used to ramp up sentiment for war but that turned out to be completely fabricated …just like the beheaded infants narrative has turned out to be false, as verified by no less reputable an organization as Human Rights Watch.
I didn;t follow most of the Gulf War episodes. Reminded me too much of corporate/political arrogance along with the casualties of Nam.
@larryc, this is a story that’s carried with much more solemnity in Finland. However, a very courageous war reporter Antti Kuronen from Finnish National Broadcasting Company was at Kfar Aza with a group of international journalists, and was visibly shaken. I’ve also seen other, younger generation journalists on “open source” environment truly shaken.
What ever decision politicians make of it, it’s not Vietnam. I do acknowledge the place the conflict has in minds of older generations. But I personally am middle aged Gen Xer, and was only born a year and half after Fall of Saigon. My husband was all of 20 days old! And our generation isn’t even considered “young” leadership internationally, most World Leaders are born between circa 1968-1980 now.
I fully support Israel’s quest to exterminate every Hamas barbarian terrorist that currently lives and breathes. However, it should be done strategically – I don’t agree with Israel’s current scorched earth carpet bombing strategy. Gaza Strip only covers 139 square miles (Gaza is slightly larger than the Caribbean island nation of Grenada)…yet it’s densely populated with over 2.3 million people. That means, many civilian casualties are inevitable when you have so many people crammed together and nowhere to do. And if Israel follows through with its full ground invasion of Gaza, that will mean urban warfare…which will only exacerbate Palestinian civilian casualties…as well as Israeli military casualties.
Also, it doesn’t make sense that Israel is targeting high-rise apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and other civilian spaces…when they’re supposed to be targeting Hamas terrorists. I know Israel claims that Hamas has been known to hide in civilian areas…..but I’m more skeptical. Experts claim that Hamas has constructed a number of elaborate underground tunnels and canals throughout the Gaza Strip….so, it would seem more likely they would be taking refuge in these concoctions during airstrikes.
And…in addition to the relentless carpet bombings of Gaza, there are still 150 Israeli civilians being held hostage by Hamas terrorists. Hamas has already made threats that they’ll start executing those hostages (and video record them) if the airstrikes continue. Many Israeli families of the hostages are understandably worried about this and have been pleading with the Bibi and the Israeli Government to prioritize getting their family members home before destroying Hamas.
Israel making a lot of rash decisions at the moment out of rage (and the rage they have is perfectly understandable and warranted) rather than considering the consequences their actions are already having on Palestinian civilians (especially the children, mothers, senior citizens, and the disabled)…as well as the Israeli hostages (who’s lives are hanging by a thread at the moment).
In other words, Israel is engaging in the same indiscriminate bombing tactics that Russia has been engaging in with Ukraine…and that deeply concerns me.
I’ve mentioned in many past posts that I’ve traveled to Israel many times over the years…I’ve also been to Palestine (I’ve never been to Gaza, only to West Bank) and the Golan Heights. The Palestinian and Israeli people (whether they be Jewish, Arab, Druze, Circassian, Samaritan, Armenian, etc.) are very friendly and welcoming people….I sincerely hate that they are all being caught in the middle of this violent mess.
Lovely, that.
The problem is that many people don’t understand and think that the Palestinian people and Hamas are one and the same. They don’t know that many Palestinians want nothing to do with Hamas and just want peace and as you point out are now caught up in the middle of the violence. The attacks are horrific and like in the aftermath of 911 many rash decisions are being made. According to Israeli friends, Netanyahu was more interested in undermining the Palestinian authority and any kind of peace process than working towards some sort of two state solution.
According to the Times of Israel: “For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces. The premier’s policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from. Amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
See link https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
“Extermination”, “barbarian”….these are VERY loaded terms to describe living and breathing people. Can we please lay off the rhetoric? It does nothing to advance discussions that demand sensitivity
It seens It goes to freedom. On 15/11/2022 05:47 am Palestine mundane Chart, started its 11th House profection (freedom), with South Node over its Pluto Mercury conjunction (13 Scorpio) and Uranus Norte Node transiting in opposition (13 Taurus) What’s Stunning is that date was exactly Israel’s nodal return, with Uranus North Node transiting Nessus (abuse) and squaring its Saturn Pluto. And again on the 7 October Júpiter hit this 13 Taurus degree where Uranus North Node had recently been, infusing hope to those that beleived freedom was still posible, at the cost of leaving behind peace (Mars conjunct South Node un libra).
“Freedom was still possible at the cost of leaving behind peace” – twas ever thus….
Thank you for this, Marjorie, and for your thoughtful look-back at the history of these vile confrontations.
I wish the voices of restraint would prevail, but I’m under no illusions they will. Netanyahu will undoubtedly destroy thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent lives in his quest for revenge and saving face, when a more limited response, preserving innocent civilian lives on both sides, would probably be more effective in restoring some sort of balance and peace in the long term.
This morning I was almost grateful that my local PBS radio station was in begging mode, giving me an excuse to turn off the distressing news about the Middle East and the continuing Republican dysfunction paralyzing the US government.
I was pleased to see Joe Biden and Anthony Blinken both being upfront and firm about civilian casualties. But Netanyahu is neither sensible nor sensitive.
I agree. I’ve always thought that Netanyahu is evil and totally corrupt, much like Trump, caring only for his own survival and power. Israel can do far better — and the innocent Israeli civilians, and especially the poor Palestinians, repressed for so long, pay the price for his extremist policies which only empower terrorists, including Hamas and Hezbollah.