Saturn and Neptune have been a pervasive and often conflicting influence over the past fifteen years plus with Pluto moving through Saturn-ruled Capricorn and Neptune in Pisces doubling up its reality-twisting tendencies. They will come together from mid 2025 in a conjunction in Aries which French astrologer Andre Barbault, envisaged as bringing about a ‘new world civilization’ taking off with a ‘new age of humanity’ – ‘a significant rise in the standard of living of the underprivileged, of a victory over misery won in an unprecedented solidarity.’
Barbault’s soaring rhetoric focuses on the best of Saturn Neptune aided by being central to the Pluto in Aquarius Uranus in Gemini trine. “ We are faced with the possibility of a change such as to make it seem too weak the terms “change” or the same “upheaval” to define the breadth of what could transform the known world.”
While I am not convinced that the promised land is approaching in quite such lyrical terms, it is true that the present hyper-anxiety and gloom will shift in 2025.
Understanding the nature – pluses and minuses – of Saturn and Neptune, both in individual charts and out in the universe can be helpful. The below is a pull together of two old posts.
SATURN
Saturn has had an undeservedly malefic reputation. Death, disaster, failure, depression, delays, lack of self-worth. All gloom, doom and misery.
I’ve always been very grateful for my Saturn – it induces a strong work ethic, instils a sense of discipline over time, is practical, realistic and provides a backbone when the mush threatens to take over. Even better, where Saturn is marked in a chart, it gets easier the older you get. The negative side reigns over the first third of life; it mellows through the middle third; and the final third becomes everything that wasn’t there at the start – warmer, more supportive, consolidated.
Saturn is essentially about structure in earthly terms. It plans, prepares, thinks long term to a feasible goal, then gets foundations laid, builds slowly and securely so its achievements stand the test of time. The end result of its endeavours is not necessarily aesthetic, since it isn’t concerned with cosmetic fripperies, but it is enduring.
Ruling Capricorn, it has the same steady ambition, which is willing to forego instant gratification for long term goals. Like the symbolic mountain goat, it starts in the foothills and works its way up to the peak, along a winding path if necessary.
Saturn restricts, so oversees limits and boundaries which may not feel like fun but are essential, psychologically as well as practically, in life. Neptune dissolves boundaries, Pluto invades across them to grab all the territory, Uranus blows them up, but Saturn stands firm for order, delineation, marked borders. In action, it is like a gardener who prunes plants back, lopping off overgrown branches, to stimulate fresh growth and produce a more manageable shape.
Often called a money-grubbing scrooge, Saturn is concerned with material security and can be less than generous and open-hearted. Again that’s down to its earthly nature and liking for boundaries. ‘Me and mine’ come first.
Not that Saturn is a delight at close quarters in intimate relationships. It can be cold, putting up a defensive wall against any encroachment, tending to put things above feelings, and is better at ‘doing’ than ‘being’.
The myth of Saturn eating his children depicted in a horrific Goya painting is apt, since it ties into his obsessions with time and mortality. Saturn was scared of being overthrown by his sons so he ate them at birth. Deep down he knows he is going to die and his children represent a future that he can never possess, since his is limited by his mortal span. He both loves and loathes the boundaries of his life, so he tries to over-ride them and stop time.
Having Saturnine parents means facing two things – their envy and their ability to induce misplaced guilt on their child. The Saturnine father pushes and pushes his children to be a success, being excessively critical of any failures, making them feel they never achieve enough to satisfy him, so damaging the child’s self-esteem though it can helpfully induce a driving need to be a success. But deep down the father’s fear is that they might outdo him, become more successful and outlive him. It’s difficult to cope with since if the child grown to adult became stratospherically successful, the father would shrivel, feel worthless himself and be consumed with envy. So it’s a no win situation, until the child/adult separates enough to understand it’s the father’s issue, not theirs.
The Saturnine mother on the other hand insinuates into the child a sense that they are responsible for her depression; and their role in life is to look after her and make her happy. She makes a bad, under-nurturing mother but expects her offspring to give her the caring she never gave them.
The mythological Saturn showed his other face at the autumn festivals of the harvest, when the agricultural bounty of the year was brought in and drunken celebrations ensued after the hard work was done. Earthly delights are also his preserve and his reign was seen as one of peace and plenty. Despite the devouring father, he’s associated with the flow of the seasons, especially winter when everything dies back to be reborn in spring.
Capricorn as a sign is unfairly dubbed as the cold, materialistic workaholic, but in fact has a highly creative and (indulgent) side. The old Capricorn symbol was half goat half fish. He operates in two realms – in the watery realm of ideas and visions and then makes them real on dry land. He is the stander on the threshold between the unconscious and the conscious; just as Capricorn stands on the cusp of the year that has past and the year that is about to come. He both mourns and celebrates.
Successful people tend to operate in a Saturnine way. Maggie Thatcher’s career moved to the transits of Saturn – into the Cabinet when tr Saturn moved up across her Descendant into her third quadrant, became PM when tr Saturn moved across her midheaven. Then she ignored its hints in the latter years of her tenure as it moved into her lower-profile first quadrant, when she should have been winding down, but given her temperament couldn’t do it. She was summarily ejected when her Solar Arc Saturn was exactly square her focal point Sun. Saturn can raise to great heights through excessively hard work, but it is a hard taskmaster when lessons are not learned.
Richard Nixon on the other hand was forced to resign facing impeachment charges when tr Saturn was moving through his 10th (supposedly the peak). That was when Saturn’s iron rule ‘you reap what you sow’ came into play, and Nixon’s chickens came home to roost. The god of the harvest knows that only careful preparation at the right time, clearing the ground, sowing seeds, tending to the growing crops, sticking to the rules, will provide the cornucopia. If you don’t put in the sweat and planning and try to bend the rules, it brings retribution.
Neptune:
Neptune as befits its mysterious nature has had a confused image in astrology. Describing it as slippery and evasive, impractical and low energy, as well as fostering dreams and visions, kindness and compassion, the traditional write-ups miss vital characteristics both positive and negative. Top athletes who need exceptional physical endurance often have strong Neptune aspects to their Suns. Successful businessmen and explorers are often Pisces, which is ruled by Neptune. It can also be inhumanely cruel – viz. the Nazi doctor Josef Mengele was a Pisces Sun trine Neptune. John Gacy, who raped and killed at least 33 teenage boys, was a New Moon in Pisces opposition Neptune.
In mythology Neptune ruled the watery oceans and waged war on Athena, who ruled the land. As an act of aggression he raped Medusa in Athena’s temple, in revenge for which she was banished to the far wilderness. Sacrifice and victimhood falls in Neptune’s realm. The sea can be cruel, certainly cold, changeable, is liable to brew up into monstrous storms, can chip away relentlessly at rocky coastlines until they collapse.
Christianity according to Carl Jung was the iconic symbol for the two thousand year Age of Pisces, ruled by Neptune. Yet Christianity, despite its love and tolerance motif, has at its heart an image of gruesomely bloody torture and the acute physical suffering of a forsaken son. Neptune has a dissolving action so physical dismemberment is part of his lexicon.
Neptune rules religion, associated with endless examples of atrocities, from the Crusades, the Inquisition, the murderous Protestant versus Roman Catholic centuries, more recently Al Quada and fundamentalist Islam. Being obsessed by an all-encompassing Neptunian vision can obliterate everything that is human.
Creativity, which is also one of Neptune’s talents, was born out of Medusa’s beheading when Pegasus, the winged horse, was set free. Again there is a paradox about Neptune – revelling in brutality of the bloodiest variety in order to set free the ideal. An eternal war between the physical world and the spirit. You can’t get one without the other.
Merged with other planets Neptune can be a powerful force and not always for the good. Neptune Pluto is super-ambitious, scandal prone and megalomaniac. Neptune Uranus can be fanatical as well as inspired. Neptune Saturn is associated with epidemics, paranoia, mental instability as well as social reform. Neptune Jupiter rules high-finance, bankers and the like, as well as dodgy gurus. Dualistic to the end.
Where Neptune can move mountains is in the minds and hands of a few who are capable of focusing so much determination and practical application on their vision they can make it real. Together with Saturn and backed up by an inspired Pluto trine Uranus, who knows?
“Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible.” T.E. Lawrence.
I’m looking forward to August 2025 when Saturn/Neptune and the remaining outer planets are lined up along 1-2° of their respective signs. To me this is the world of form resonating with formless, history making forces. Perhaps a planetary shift or breakthrough on the scale Barbault has predicted?
I have many friends and clients born in 1951-1953 with the Saturn/Neptune conjunction in Libra.
To a person, they each have been deeply committed to a kind of “bringing the utopia of community to earth”. Putting practical feet on the dream of community.
An urban planner who created a unique job in municipal government that created unique support systems for single moms, children, addicts, etc. A chef who magically created a community meal for 75 people from nettles, nettles and more nettles. My Wasband, who lived in a commune for many years. All amazing people.
I am born in 1958, so not my reality.. and it was this short burst of 3 years of births!
I’ve always been fascinated with this age group from the early 50’s.
And, there is a singular Aries quality in them.. a kind of “can do”, entrepreneurial or leadership quality.
Bringing in the opposite sign of Aries into the Libra conjunction!?
Which gets me wondering about the conjunction in Aries? Bringing the high dream and vision of the individual to earth.. in a practical way. And then? Drawing in the opposite sign of Libra and drawing in community, the law, etc.
Honestly?… gives me a bit of hope! 🙂
And Marjorie, I too have come to deeply appreciate my Saturn, on the back side of my Sag ascendant. I also have Capricorn intercepted in my first house… so am quite Capricornish, for all my fire! The Master Craftsman has become a good friend and wise Counsel.
all the best,
Potentially some very interesting patterns are emerging. VF and Serega both talk about the possible importance of Saturn/Neptune for Russia. I think it is worth watching. For the relatively ‘modern’ history of Russia, communism is obviously deeply meaningful. So I thought about The Communist Manifesto, by Marx and Engels, which was published in February 1848. However, the process and thinking behind this work would have been influenced by the Saturn/Neptune conjunctions of 1846 in late Aquarius. That was also significant for the US Moon in Aquarius – the Mexican-American War began that year. 1848 is also known as the ‘Year of Revolutions’ across Europe, again those uprisings take time to brew before reaching outward expression.
1846 also brought the discovery of Neptune, on 23rd September. Saturn and Neptune were at 25 Aquarius then.
August 21st 1846’s Leo new Moon was 27-8 Leo, opposing Saturn 27 Aquarius, Neptune 26 Aquarius.
This month, there’s the intense full Moon in Aquarius, 27 degrees on 19th August. What might it be bringing to a head?
The founding of St.Petersburg that Hugh mentions is interesting, given Peter the Great’s drive to recreate a Russia which was more European. (Including the amusing ‘beard tax’ – an attempt to encourage Russian men to look less Russian). Thus the Saturn/Neptune conjunction will surely have an impact on the city itself as well as Russia as a whole, since the conjunction will oppose the Russia 862 chart’s Sun/Saturn at 1 Libra.
A beard tax you say? Hmmn! Excellent idea. I remember you’ve talked about the early Russian chart before, and I’m going to have another look at it. As a fan of the Edgar chart for the UK, I sometimes think these early charts contain interesting seeds.
Thank you, Marjorie, for a profound and highly meaningful post. At its best, the Saturn-Neptune conjunction brings a compassionate ideal down to earth in a concrete form. If the Dems win big in November as I expect, now would be the time for universal health care in the US. It would have to be done before the mid-terms. Early 2026 sounds just about right.
Also, Saturn-Neptune always seems to have a specific and major impact on Russia. It can also mean the dissolution of an evil state. The USSR disappeared at the last conjunction. This one appears to be the moment Putin will go.
The Saturn-Neptune conjunction is another hopeful sign Kamala will win. There are many others.
Andre,
I have long believed that Putin’s downfall will be sudden, swift, and without warning, likely coming from within his own circle. His entire regime is a house of cards standing upon quicksand. Rather than making Russia “great again,” he’s ensuring its collapse and descent into irrelevance by expending more resources and manpower in a grab for Ukraine than what it can afford. He has vastly overplayed his hand. Why else would he be so desperate now to partner with the likes of N. Korea and Cuba?
Navalny may well have the last laugh after all, even if from the other side.
Thank you Marjorie, I want to read this over and over again! The father-and-son motif of Saturn and Neptune is fascinating too. It seems to find expression in Christian symbolism as you suggest, which in turn was inspired by earlier rituals and myths. Communion (CofE) involves “eating” and “drinking” the body and blood of Christ, an image that resonates with Saturn the father “eating” his own son, Neptune. But then Saturn’s children are reborn…..
I also started thinking about the realities of making music, and how much Saturnian discipline is needed to write and perform music, which may have been inspired by Neptune. Thought about Pisces Chopin, 1 March 1810, and was fascinated to see he was born with Saturn in Sagittarius conjunct Neptune. The exact conjunction had been in 1809. His Sun, Venus, Pluto in Pisces are square, with an inspirational trine from Uranus in Scorpio as well.
I wonder if this will be a stop (Saturn) on illusions, lies, deception, fraud (Neptune).
A reckoning (Saturn) for various (often money-making) dubious “spiritual practices” (all Neptune).
An end (Saturn) to mcmindfulness, mindfulness, meditation (Neptune). A stop and/or toll-pay station (Saturn) for law of attraction, law of assumption, visualization, “your thoughts/feelings/beliefs create your reality” (Neptune).
A stop to all-around haze (Neptune), where, in the words of Alabe.com Astro-Weather, for Neptune being VOC,
“Trends are unclear. Not everything is known, there is much to suspect. The fabric of reality seems to be ripped asunder. Faith in leadership is low. Social and economic conditions are unstable and subject to devaluations. The future looks uncertain and no one is taking any chances. Beliefs about reality are challenged. Some feel overwhelmed, even flooded, literally and figuratively.”
There are some differences between Cronos the Greek god of time and Saturn who was essentially an agricultural deity associated with the earth and the farming cycle. In its Roman guise the god was very much about getting the just desserts from ones labours. The Capitol in Rome stood on the Mons Saturnius and it was the location of the Roman Republic’s treasury. In Roman religion Neptune was the son of Saturn and the Earth goddess Ops. Like his Greek counterpart Poseidon he was also a god of horses a fact which I find striking given the omens involving horses seen recently which doubtless would have sent the Romans scurrying to consult the Sybelline books. Significantly there was only one temple to Neptune in Rome during the Republic located next to the race track at the Circus Flaminius.
I suppose in some respects Saturn chasing and catching up with Neptune in Aries is about reaping the harvest of the last Neptune cycle which begun when the planet was last at the world point in 1861. This was the date of the outbreak of the American Civil War which in many ways marked the beginning of industrialised conflict . It also marks the end of the last Saturn cycle which began in 1996. The shift in cycles is often associated with periods of disorder and eventually reform.
The Neptune/Saturn conjunction at 02 Aries in 593 BCE saw Solon’s laws introduced in Athens cancelling debt, extending the citizen body and setting the conditions for the emergence of Athenian democracy.
In the Roman era the Neptune/Saturn conjunction Aries marked the outbreak of the Social War in 91 BCE that started the process leading to the collapse of the Roman Republic. The next conjunction in Aries in 232 CE occurred just before the Third Century crisis of the Roman Empire which saw 26 claimants to the title of emperor in 50 years.
In 1380 another conjunction in Aries preceded the Peasants Revolt in England. It started a century conflict in British history that ended in the Wars of the Roses and the destruction of many of the aristocratic families that had ruled England since 1066.
The last Saturn/Neptune Conjunction in Aries was in 1703 during the War of the Spanish succession which marked the beginning of Britain as a dominant European and eventually global power.It also saw the founding of St Petersburg and the Great Storm of 1703 that devastated southern England.
Generally the meeting of the planets leads to lots of energy being released which leads to the breakdown of one order and eventually the creation of a new one. My guess is that Neptunian turmoil will eventually become subsumed in a new Saturnian order but it won’t be an easy or quick process. These are also Plutos themes so it being involved in a sextile to the Neptune/Saturn conjunction is significant.
And I can’t spell Sibylline…
Thanks Hugh and Jane, above for all that historical detail. Also, regarding 1703, the so-called Apenine Earthquakes occurred in Italy resulting in the deaths of around 10,000 people. I think it’s quite apt also that Edinburgh, the ‘The Company of Quenching of Fire’ was founded, an early Fire Brigade after a spate of fires in the city. It makes me think of the fire element of Aries, dampened down by watery Neptune and earthy Saturn.
What a fabulous piece of writing, Wise Marjorie! Many thanks as always. You are exceptional.
Such useful insights into these two planets, thank you Marjorie.
We emerged from the sea, its the cradle of all civillization and highway of exploration and interaction .
The sea is what makes earth habitable. Its bounty is immense, it beauty endless.
Neptune is trivialised in astrology in my opinion, likely because of its relatively recent discovery.
“Top athletes who need exceptional physical endurance often have strong Neptune aspects to their Suns.”
USA have won gold in the women’s artistic gymnastics final. The magical and amazing Pisces Simone Biles has, it seems, put all the stress of Tokyo behind her. At the moment, tr Neptune in Pisces is sextile her natal Neptune in Capricorn, conjunct her South Node, opposite her Virgo Mars, and inconjunct her BML – which is aligned with that blazing ‘royal’ fixed star, Regulus. Tr Saturn is one degree off her natal Venus 19 Pisces, perhaps giving her even more extra backbone and discipline in her artistic athletic expression. The Algol Uranus pair trine Mars within one degree too. Interesting to see tr Jupiter close to her IC in Gemini at this moment of restoration for her.
@Jane! That is amazing, thank you! I have Venus 17 Pisces and mars in Virgo; both config with Neptune as well, soooo hoping for some more positive life “developments” in coming months…
And thank you Marjorie for the insightful description! So appreciate your written perspective <3
@Jane, I’ve often noted who three prominent football players were born within a week of my birth: Ronaldo (Nazario de Lima), Andriy Shevchenko and Francesco Totti. All have Saturn sextile Pluto sextile Neptune, and Totti has his Sun conjunct Pluto. He was able to carry his career until his 40’s, which, I think, is very unusual for those footballers whose career started in the 1990’s, when game became extremely more physical, but physical training methods and surgeries didn’t follow suit immediately (and yes, it was fuelled by doping, testing still isn’t what it should be, but the turn of millenium was horrendous).
There were something very Neptunian about the opening ceremony of the Olympics in Paris with a watery horse racing down the Seine past headless figures on the bank dressed as Marie Antionette. At the time Neptune was conjunct Scheat which sits in the constellation of Pegasus the winged horse, a mythic creature supposedly sprung from the blood of Medusa who was a Gorgon decapitated by the hero Perseus. Needless to say Uranus at the same moment was conjunct Algol the notorious fixed star associated with beheadings. It was all so very odd particularly as the original Merovingian kings of France were said to have been descended from a sea monster that was part bull (Taurus) and part fish (Pisces), described by the Chronicle of Fredegar as a “beast of Neptune”.
How interesting, a window into the pagan past and how our pre-Christian ancestors might have understood events. Fascinating, thank you Hugh.
The chart for the very first modern Olympics in Athens has Neptune in the 10th house (6th April 1896, 15.00 Athens). I noted that Marjorie said that the opening ceremonies for individual games don’t show events very clearly so I took a look at the first games to see if this might show anything. On 26th July when Paris opened Tr Neptune was exactly trine the Athens Jupiter in Cancer. Tr Jupiter is about to conjunct the Athens Neptune. In addition to the watery theme of the ceremony, there was heavy rain which has delayed the triathlon due to sewage in the Seine. (If Marjorie has a chance to look at this chart I think it would be interesting. Tr Uranus was opposite the 3rd house Athens Uranus exactly sq the Athens Mars in Aquarius on the 26th, which would tie in with the transport sabotage. North node is in Pisces in the 6th).
Thanks Hugh. I think it’s also curious that the controversial feast tableau, which some thought was the Last Supper, was intended to depict an Olympian Feast of Dionysus. Asteroid Dionysus is currently aligned with the 1789 French National Assembly Venus, 1 Cancer. ‘Twice born’ Dionysus himself is a Neptunian figure, bisexual or asexual, followed mainly by women.
“Along these lines, I feel Dionysus is a marvelous window into Pisces because his archetype connects with the Pisces traditional ruler of Jupiter, the modern ruler of Neptune, the esoteric ruler of Pluto, and the consideration that Venus is exalted in the sign of Pisces. In The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony, Roberto Calasso described Dionysus with an air of similarity to Pisces, the last sign of the zodiac that contains all other signs and is the source of all twelve signs:
Dionysus’s line is more obscure . . . only rarely does it emerge from the shadow. Since he is both snake and bull, all history before Zeus is recalled in him and begins again in him.
–Roberto Calasso, The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony, p. 208” (Gary Crawford, depthpsychlogyalliance.com)
@serega
Stalin died during the conjunction of Saturn and Neptune in 1953.
Also the execution of the Romanovs, 16/17 July 1917. Saturn and Neptune at 2 and 4 degrees Leo. This conjunction has repercussions for Russia perhaps.
Sorry, I always get the dates wrong in this – it’s 1918 that the Romanovs died, but the Saturn/Neptune conjunction in Leo did coincide with the aftermath of the Russian Revolution.
Thank you Marjorie, you really are a trove of wonderful Astrology information that works and
means so much to so many people world wide.
What a great post! Thank you, Marjorie. There’s a lot of good information on Saturn and Neptune.
Neptune and Saturn is like matter meeting anti matter in an act of mutual annihilation. The two planets both move into Aries in 2025 and come within a degree of each other in the summer of that year before retrograding back into Pisces
With regard to the coming year Pluto/Mars is making three oppositions. The first is on 3rd November 2024 on the 29 Capricorn and 29 Cancer axis. The second on the 3rd January 2025 at 1 Aquarius and 1 Leo. The third on 27 April 2025 at 3 Aquarius and 3 Leo.
Mars crosses the South Node at 20 Virgo on 22 July 2025 before moving to 1 Libra on 9th August 2025 where it opposes both Saturn and Neptune at 1 Aries. It then transits to 27 Libra on 16 September where it opposes Chiron at 27 Aries.
Mars rounds off the year by making an opposition to Uranus on the 0 degree Gemini/Sagittarius axis on 4th November 2025. The chart also has the Moon at 0 Taurus square Pluto at 1 Aquarius
Those oppositions to outer planets on Fire/Air axes look highly combustible so I am expecting the run upto the Neptune/Saturn conjunction at 0 Aries to be quite fraught.
Crikey Hugh. I have natal Moon and Mars at 0 degrees so this is looking more than a wee bit worrying for me on a purely personal level.
Lovely writing Marjorie…albeit not much comfort within the prose!!:)
Excellent piece. Many thanks Marjorie.
What a brilliant piece of writing ; thanks Marjorie.
I was thinking about this a couple of days ago with respect to how Neptune in Pisces has been a group delusion. Some politicians are so deluded in their beliefs that they are gaslighting others into believing their rubbish. And the media are playing into it by having to give ‘balance’ when a controversial opinion is presented. Also how when you watch a talent show or the Olympics or whatever, you’re not allowed to criticise or say anything negative – it all has to be gushing and positive.
I wonder if Saturn in Aries will see some people waking back up to reality and asserting their opinions without giving a care about how others feel. Meanwhile Neptune will leave some still living in the dreamworld.
Both of my adult children have Saturn in Aries, and they can be painfully blunt at times. I’ve learned to adjust my speech with them and they’ve helped me so much with regard to making thoughtless comments. They also are able to be very kind and tolerant, moreso the older they have become. Thanks
Stalin died during the conjunction of Saturn and Neptune in 1953.