The IOC (Olympic Committee) has got itself in a tangle over DSD boxers whom they deem female without a check yet are banned elsewhere in the sport. DSD means difference of sexual development, appearing female at birth but with male chromosomes and more importantly internal testes which produce testosterone at normal male levels at puberty so they develop the strength, muscle mass, height and power of other men. A simple quick cheek swab with a cotton bud reveals the biological sex and is added to an athlete’s permanent record. Anti-doping tests are far more intrusive and can happen any time. Female athletes have voted overwhelmingly in favour of such a test but the IOC has ignored their wishes.
In other arenas there is a ban on any athlete who transitioned after male puberty from the women’s category and DSD males are required to reduce testosterone levels.
Ironically the IOC, 23 June 1894, for an organization rumoured to be sexist and misogynistic is a Sun Cancer, with a Moon hovering between Aquarius and Pisces. It unbelievably apparently banned women from ski jumping until 2014 on the grounds it might damage their wombs. The IOC started off as a gentleman’s club for amateurs and has struggled to cope with Russian and Chinese state-sponsored athletes circumventing the ideal of the amateur, never mind the drug problem.
The IOC Cancer Sun squares Mars in Aries both of which will be undermined and buffeted by tr Neptune Saturn moving into Aries in 2025/26. Tr Saturn is exactly now squaring the Jupiter damping their confidence. By late 2025 the SA Pluto is conjunct the Saturn. They have a rough road ahead until after 2026. At which points the Solar Arc Sun will conjunct the Uranus for more disruptions in 2027.
Thomas Bach, President of the IOC, a foil fencer and former gold medallist, in office since 2013, has got himself in a tangle over the boxers. Born 29 December 1953, he is a Sun Capricorn sextile a hard-edged Mars Saturn in Scorpio. He’s having an unsettled and undermining year with his SA Neptune conjunct his Sun and tr Uranus square his Pluto into early 2025 after which he runs into a serious setback with SA Pluto conjunct his Saturn in later 2025.
There are always crises running with the Olympics whether over corruptions during the bidding process, drugs or wars so he’ll be well used to ructions. But he and the IOC are certainly none too happy.
I think one thing to point out is that DSDs aren’t just one condition, and there really ought to be better public education about them, as it’s being used in a lot of the (quite deliberate, imo) obfuscation about what’s going on in this situation. There are some that only occur on male pathways, some only on female, biologically-speaking. The issue here is that the DSD suspected in this case, almost certainly one called DSD 46XY 5-ARD, involves a male puberty and all that entails in terms of male advantage, while at birth, that often would not have been obvious. Hence the “assigning” as female at birth (if that was indeed the case), on passports by governments etc, depending on the country. As far as I’m aware, the IBA didn’t carry out the testing, btw, two independently accredited labs did, separately, with the same result; that both boxers were XY. Several (well-respected) sports journalists have been continuing to try to report this. It isn’t just about testosterone, and it’s certainly nothing to do with ‘trans’, except that the trans lobby has heavily influenced the narrative we’re seeing now; the same demonisation of women who question, the same disregard of women’s rights and safety, the same desire for self ID or passports to be the key marker for entry. The murkiness side of this whole thing (and others) in information terms is what’s most troubling to me terms of astrological influences; this isn’t, in my opinion accidental, it is quite deliberate, as is the ideological capture of media outlets and bodies – I’d no idea that the IOC started off as pretty much the old boys club it did, Marjorie! But it figures…
I am confused, Hergie Bacyadan “identifies as a trans man, he competes in the women’s divisions” , what does it mean? and at the end of the day is it that important when there are really serious issues in the world. Is it making a mountain out of a molehill?
I will try to keep this simple. This morning I nearly posted thoughts and decided better of it.
Astrology does not distinguish between sexes or genders so really has no place specifically in this debate. Except in relation to the larger question of culture changes.
Getting sanctimonious about ‘scientific evidence’ won’t wash since in arguments each side tends to cherry pick what suits them. The false memory argument in the 1990s destroyed forever my respect in the ‘science community’s integrity or common sense for that matter. They can be obdurate and/or provocative to grab attention, plain barmy and often wrong until two decades later when it all comes out in the wash.
Testosterone does not matter appears to be one line of argument. Have they ever watched a David Attenborough documentary? Or indeed Monkey World about a sanctuary in Dorset which keeps rescued chimps (nearest to humans), orangutans etc in social groups as they would be in the wild. Their social habits are very sex-determined and hierarchical. Some monkey species are led by alpha females other by alpha males.
No one disagrees there are a small number of sexual inbetweens and that they should not be offered sympathy as with those suffering gender dysphoria. But what is that old expression? – extreme cases make bad case law. You can’t legislate for the majority or indeed make sweeping generalisations about the majority because of a tiny minority.
One of the papers you quoted said: “Current female eligibility policies for both transwomen and women with higher levels of testosterone than the so-called norm are based on unscientific claims about testosterone. These claims purport that higher average levels of testosterone among people assigned male at birth give them an unfair advantage.”
And they don’t?
The whole point and purpose of testosterone is to build up muscle mass and bone in the male of the species. It’s why you have Men’s and Women’s competitions in tennis and don’t hold ‘mixed gender’ 100 metre sprints.
Anyways that is just to put the other side. And since there are no astro-specifics I really don’t want a lengthy ping pong match. It will all come into the wash at some point.
While I certainly agree with you that people tend to cherry-pick facts that support their believes, given my own experience with Mercury retrogrades, I find these periods usually call for the reliance on time-proven expertise, hence my astrology-related recommendation to defer to scientific expertise, and the attempt to include links to the articles from which I quoted.
You wrote, “The whole point and purpose of testosterone is to build up muscle mass and bone in the male of the species.”
Since testosterone is a hormone present in all humans, I find it strange that you would characterize it as a hormone solely for “the male of the species.”
From Harvard Health Publishing’s 22 June 2023 article, “Testosterone: What it is and how it affects your health”
“Testosterone’s role in bad behavior is largely a myth. What’s more, testosterone plays other important roles in health and disease that may surprise you. For example, did you know that testosterone is a key player in prostate cancer? Or, that women need testosterone, too?
“If you thought testosterone was only important in men, you’d be mistaken. Testosterone is produced in the ovaries and adrenal gland. It’s one of several androgens (male sex hormones) in females. These hormones are thought to have important effects on
ovarian function
bone strength
sexual behavior, including normal libido (although evidence is not conclusive).
“The proper balance between testosterone (along with other androgens) and estrogen is important for the ovaries to work normally. While the specifics are uncertain, it’s possible that androgens also play an important role in normal brain function (including mood, sex drive and cognitive function).”
Because scientific theories are just that, theories, based on evidence the contemporary technology available at the time of the theories’ formation yielded, it’s important both for those within and outside of the scientific community to remember that they can be updated.
I think many laypeople are not very familiar with the difference between scientific theory and scientific fact. Because of that and our innate discomfort with uncertainty, people can feel very uncomfortable when previously well-known scientific theories are updated, and we have to update our own assumptions about the world we live in accordingly.
For me, seeing gender as a spectrum offers more opportunities for inclusion of the full wonders of both our own species and nature in general, as well as for us to better relate with one another as individuals who might self-identify along any point on that spectrum.
Given the fact that transgender people (especially transgender women) face so much more physical violence based on people’s misunderstanding of gender than cisgender people (see UCLA School of Law’s article, “Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime.”), since from my many visits to this site, you and many other regulars appear to advocate for more peaceful coexistence, I thought I’d share some information I’ve learned that would help to demystify gender and hopefully prevent more future tragedies.
Testosterone is the male sex hormone that is made in the testicles. Testosterone hormone levels are important to normal male sexual development and functions. During puberty (in the teen years), testosterone helps boys develop male features like body and facial hair, deeper voice, and muscle strength.
Testosterone is a sex hormone that is present in both women and men, but in different amounts. Women’s bodies produce testosterone in the ovaries, adrenal glands, fat cells, and skin cells, and typically produce about 1/10th to 1/20th of the amount as men’s bodies.
Since this is not a biomedical website – this discussion is finished. Further comments along these lines will be deleted.
A woman is killed by a man every three days here in the UK. There has been one murder of a trans victim this year, that has been the average since 2008.
You need to calm down.
I don’t know if I am a layperson, or how you are not. I have two science degrees if that helps. It is a scientific fact that testosterone increases muscle mass and this has been *empirically*, not theoretically, demonstrated time and time again. You are needlessly getting into some complicated biochemistry. Yes testosterone is present in women but it is synthesised and metabolised differently and in far less concentrations.
Lance Armstrong pretty much taught the world how to cheat. Hormones and other endogenous ligands were used to escape detection – the ion trapping mechanisms of many synthetic substrates can leave it detectable for a very long time. We all know the great lengths Armstrong went to with blood transfusions etc. and one of the things he made great use of was Andriol – or liquid testosterone as it is known. It is incredibly difficult to detect.
I was discussing all this with a former competitive swimmer who is now an academic in physiology very recently. He relayed a conversation he had with some swimming coaches who referred to the Chinese swimmers as “swimming bricks”. Basically, they can see that their stroke technique is awful, but they have this impossible power and lack of fatigue that powers them through. It is very obvious to someone with a trained eye that something is up and testosterone is strongly suspected.
I will end on an astrological note about Mercury retrograde since you mention it. Retrogrades backfire and Mercury is no different. If you are trying to cheat, especially during a Mercury retrograde, it will backfire on you. If you ignore the issue in others, because it’s inconvennient, it will come back to haunt you. If you try to manipulate others without trully reviewing and opening your own mind first, it will backfire on you.
This last point about Mercury is heartening at least, tara. It looks as though the truth will eventually out whatever happens!
I am glad you mentioned Monkey World Marjorie, I learnt more about human dynamics when I watched it than just about anything else, including people watching and even possibly Astrology! As soon as you accept that primal hormone driven instincts and physicality are controlling whats happening in a group with only a veil of civility over the top many things become clear.
I will add, those who think this current situation will be better under Pluto in Aquarius need to think again, its a fixed sign, I consider Aquarius to be as stubborn as Taurus when it feels ‘disrespected’
What impressed me amongst chimps and orangs is the alpha males who do a lot of chest beatings and macho displays – also have the responsibility for protecting the family which they clearly take seriously, constantly patrolling and looking out for danger. And they play with the youngsters like a good dad. Very revealing.
Since my previous comment with reference links did not post, let me just repost a text-only comment:
As we’re in Mercury retrograde, I would recommend that we defer to those with more scientific expertise on this matter.
Here’s a quote from “Biological Science Rejects the Sex Binary, and That’s Good for Humanity,” an 11 May 2022 essay on gender from SAPIENS, “a digital magazine about everything human, told through the stories of anthropologists.”
“the commitment to a simple binary view creates a fictitious template for a ‘battle of the sexes’ that manifests in miseducation about basic biology, the denigration of women’s rights, the justifications of incel and ‘men’s rights’ violence, and the creation of anti-transgender laws.
“Sex, biologically, is not simply defined or uniformly enacted. In humans, having two X chromosomes or an X and a Y chromosome does not create binary bodies, destinies, or lives. If we could crawl into the womb with a fetus at about six to eight weeks of age, we’d see a few clusters of cells in the emerging body get nudges by DNA activity and start to generate new organs, including the clitoris and penis, labia and scrotum, ovaries and testes. All genitals are made from the exact same stuff. Since they have a few differing end functions, their final form is different. But there is a lot of overlap.
“In fact, of the 140 million babies born last year, at least 280,000 did not fit into a clear penis versus labia model of sex determination. Genitals, hormone levels, and chromosomes are not reliable determinants of sex. There are, for example, people with XY chromosomes who have female characteristics, people with ambiguous genitalia, and women with testosterone levels outside the typical ‘female’ range.”
From the 3 October 2023 Guardian article: “Swimming World Cup category for transgender athletes cancelled after no entries received”
“Over the past 12 months several other sports bodies, including athletics and cycling, have gone down a similar path. But World Aquatics is the first major Olympic sport to attempt to create a third category of competition separate to men’s and women’s events.
“Although its initial pilot project did not get off the ground the governing body said it would be willing to try again, potentially at masters events for swimmers aged over 35.”
As I also wrote previously, I hope the transit of Pluto in Aquarius will bring back more respect for scientific research and fact-based evidence, while also leaving the door open to all the wonders of the universe that our species has yet to understand.
From the 16 September 2020 article, “Why J.K. Rowling’s ‘Robert Galbraith’ Pseudonym is Linked to Harmful Conversion Therapist”
“Galbraith Heath was a mid-20th century psychiatrist who pioneered a range of unethical practices that would later become known as conversion therapy.
“He experimented with a variety of methods to ‘cure’ gay men, using electroshock treatments in an attempt to change a person’s sexual orientation—such procedures are now condemned by the medical community.”
Feel free to read the entire article for Rowling’s explanation for the pen name.
What has this to do with anything?
“J.K. Rowling has denied that her pseudonym Robert Galbraith is linked to the anti-LGBTQ+ gay conversion therapist named Robert Galbraith Heath.” “J.K. Rowling wasn’t aware of Robert Galbraith Heath when choosing the pseudonym for her crime novels,” a spokesperson told Newsweek. “Any assertion that there is a connection is unfounded and untrue.”
Rowling’s representative pointed out the original explanation for the name—which was originally published on the original Robert Galbraith website—is inspired by one of the writer’s heroes, Robert F. Kennedy.
“Galbraith came about for a slightly odd reason,” she continued. “When I was a child, I really wanted to be called ‘Ella Galbraith’, and I’ve no idea why. I don’t even know how I knew that the surname existed, because I can’t remember ever meeting anyone with it.
I posted the Newsweek article in response to Solaia’s post.
I think it’s very possible that J.K. Rowling genuinely doesn’t know the origin of the surname Galbraith.
At the same time, since Robert Galbraith Heath was born in 1915 and J.K. Rowling in 1965, and Galbraith Heath’s work became more established in the middle of the 20th Century, Rowling herself may have been exposed to and influence by his now disproven work without consciously knowing that fact.
Is you are a more jaded person, you might go further to say that her claims of ignorance does not hold water. Unfortunately, short of injecting J.K. Rowling with sodium pentothal (whose efficacy itself is very much in dispute, according to the 4 December 2008 Scientific American article “What is truth serum?”), we may never know whether she’s telling the absolute truth, a lie or ignorant of her own ignorance.
Enough of this nonsense. Galbraith is a very common Scottish name. One of my bosses early on was a Galbraith.
You are treading on very thin ice and will go if there is much more of this.
Some people try to stay detached from the discussions re trans and neurodivergent people, however they do look on these conditions as merely symptoms and are trying to research the causes of at least some of these.
There have been reports that the discharge of the contraceptive pill into the rivers created sex changes in fish, innocent creatures, which leads this research to look around at other changes in nature such as the use of hormones in the food chain, not to mention the amounts of man made chemical elements saturating the soil which has led research to conclude that a return to cooperating with nature rather that fighting it may shed more light on how to deal with these conditions, I would add a return to a healthier way of letting children develop, more play, less electronics, historically the years around 1880s appear to indicate the first steps away from nature.
It is about fairness. Are there woman boxers with an unfair advantage due to how they were born at birth? The Olympic leadership has still not answered this.
Nor will they. Too much money changing hands.
They are corrupt to the core and the spokesperson was best man at Starmers wedding.
While I’m generally highly critical of IOC, I would like to point out that they are not “the baddies” in this case, and you should truly be looking at the astrology of IBA, International Boxing Association which first excluded Algerian Imane Khelid and Taiwanese Li Yu-tin from their championships in 2023, after they had been regularly competing both in IOC and IBA events for years. The decision was made behind closed doors by the IBA President, Russian Umar Kremlev (November 1st, 1982). Explanations for the exclusion were contradictory, both higher than guidance level testosterone and presence of Y chromosome were cited. However, it’s worth noticing that before her exclusion Kheled had beaten her Russian opponent – IBA, sponsored by Russian Gazprom, was one of the few amateur sports organizations not banning Russians competing under national team from their events after February 25th, 2022.
So, there is higher than zero possibility this whole debacle, amplified by notariously anti trans (mind you, not only in sports) X personalities such as the owner Elon Musk (who has denounced his of age daughter Violet after her transition) and Joanna aka J.K. Rowling aka Robert Galbraith, is a FSB misinformation operation. What is sad is that it targeted people in vulnerable position – whether or not Khaled and Yu-tin are cis woman, DSD, or trans, they come from highly patriarchal cultures – and may cover other issues, such as use of performance enhancing substances and physical and mental abuse that effect ALL female (and male) athletes.
Refusing to test testosterone levels and chromosomes isn’t a problem? The IBA may be corrupt and everything else but that has nothing to do with the IOC’s inability to understand what its female athletes are extremely concerned about. This has very little to do with the trans debate and you really are stirring up a pile of aggravation that clouds the issue.
I’m afraid they very much are.
A sex text would involve a simple cheek swab, something that 80% of female athletes backed a return of, and the IOC ignored.
As to the politics between the warring bodies that does not in anyway change the reality that its a man, a fact that Angela Carrini became well aware of very quickly.
The evidence for JK Rowling ‘anti transness’ has been requested for 6 years now, yet its still not forthcoming.
Perhaps you can supply it Solaia?
What I find sad, is that you seem to have no concern for the actual women who are having their hopes and dreams crushed and in physical danger.
Both boxers have been tested twice with a chromosonal test and there is no doubt whatsover that they are male.
Both have been through male puberty.
https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/
I’m going to put my foot in it here. As you know, I’m a strong defender of trans people’s rights — I have four friends with trans kids and have known a number of trans folks seeking to live their own best lives, quietly.
But after seeing the photos of the Italian and Algerian boxers at the center of this current dispute, I’m wondering whether, in cases where sports so clearly depend on strength and power (and that may be all or most of them; I’m terribly ignorant about sports) there should be separate categories of competition for DSD athletes.
I know — I’m opening a can of worms and don’t know how that could be done, except by designating categories according to different levels of testosterone.
Any thoughts or astrological pointers to any possible resolutions or changes?
Nicole, your very reasonable solution has been tried and has sadly failed.
Such is the state of things, you’ll now be vulnerable to a struggle session as well as being labeled as a trans exclusionary radical feminist (TERF) for even having suggesting it.
It’s usually what ends up radicalizing so many moderates and those on the left regarding this issue.
They mean business when the say TWAW.
“Transgender World Cup swimming category CANCELLED after not a single trans swimmer entered.
After an open category was introduced to help make sports fairer, trans athletes refused to participate in the swimming World Cup and instead have demanded to compete in the women’s category- so they have a stronger advantage.
The swimming World Cup, due to begin in Berlin this Friday, introduced new rules for trans swimmers last year banning biological males competing in the women’s category unless they had completed their transition by age 12 and their testosterone was below a certain threshold.
However, in protest to the rule trans swimmers are demanding to continue competing against women and not a single swimmer has entered the open category leading to organizers scrapping the category during the upcoming competition.” Sky news Dec 23
Thanks, PC. Not a surprise — as I said, I don’t really follow sports.
Just such a can of worms all round! I feel sorry for the competitors. It sounds as if there’s no viable solution that would satisfy most people.
Almost entirely for the women losing their opportunities and careers in sport.
Women recieve a tiny percentage of the funding men do, and coverage.
They are being ripped off at every angle.
If they speak out they lose their college degrees their future careers, recieve death threats etc
Its so very strange and deeply upsetting that so little thought or research is given to womens experience of this by supporters, wether on the sporstfield, the locker room, toilets, schools, hospital ward, prisons or rape shelters.
And of course you almost never hear about ‘trans men’ desperate to enter the ring with men.
Maybe its because men have 160% greater punch power than women…
Actually, there are trans men competing in the current Olympics.
Yes, in fact there is a “trans man”, Hergie Bacyadan, competing as a boxer in the womens’ category. How odd that trans rights activists are not up in arms demanding that this “man” should be competing in the mens’ boxing. All they seem to care about is letting cheating males, whether “trans women” or males with a DSD, invade womens’ sports. I only hope that this ridiculous pandering to delusion is largely a Neptune in Pisces phenomenon, and will start to dissolve when Neptune enters Aries.
@Bellis
“How odd that trans rights activists are not up in arms demanding that this ‘man’ should be competing in the mens’ boxing.”
Is this a fact that you know or an assumption you’re making? Since IOC and sports-governing bodies have diverse rules (that contradict each other), why didn’t you attribute to Hergie Bacyada’s inclusion in women’s boxing to the fact that he is forced to do so by IOC’s rules, rather than a lack of advocacy for him to compete in the men’s category?
According to Outsports’ 17 June 2024 article, “Trans boxer Hergie Bacyadan aims for a gold medal at the Paris Summer Olympics,”
“Though Bacyadan identifies as a trans man, he competes in the women’s divisions because he hasn’t undergone hormone replacement therapy.
“He proudly proclaims that he’s never taken testosterone on his social media accounts and stood up to claims to the contrary after the Russian vovinam team requested that his gold medal win in 2023 be nullified because he was a ‘man.’”
Hergie has said that athletes born with XY chromosomes should not be allowed to compete in women’s competitions, and also that anyone who has previously failed testosterone and gender-eligibility tests should be banned from competing in the women’s events. Clearly Hergie is aware, unlike those who inhabit a boundaryless fantasy world of gender woo, that biological sex is FUNDAMENTAL to fairness in sport. If you do not have separate categories for biological males and biological females, then you are effectively destroying womens’ sport. And for reasons obvious to any sane person, no trans man is stupid enough to want to compete in mens’ combat sports.