Wow. That was a defeat and a half. A loss by 230 votes kicks Theresa May’s deal into oblivion and the UK’s Brexit strategy into utter shambles territory. No one knows what comes next except that both May and Corbyn have so blotted their copy books that they have to go and sooner rather than later. May will probably win the immediate confidence vote with DUP help, since they dislike Corbyn’s united Ireland policies, but it doesn’t move the argument on.
‘Cometh the hour, cometh the man’ – hasn’t produced any obvious candidates to date though there is talk of cross-party seniors taking power back into the hands of parliament away from the government.
The relationship chart between the UK 1801 and EU 1957 isn’t too enlightening. Tr Saturn was conjunct the composite Sun in late December 2018 which is a separating influence and although Saturn hangs around after the event, it never looked strong enough for a cataclysmic split. There’s a discouraging tr Pluto square Saturn now till mid February and returning July/August and November/December 2019 indicative of an uphill-struggle and pressure for change which meets outright resistance (probably on both sides). With an undermining, disappointing tr Neptune square Moon now till early February, followed by tr Neptune opposition Jupiter, on and off till December 2019. Plus a gear shift from July 2019 onwards with tr Uranus trine the composite Uranus – with country charts soft aspects often act like hard, so it could be more indicative of a rupture or a radical alteration in the relationship. It repeats on and off till early 2020.
Theresa May’s personal chart is certainly on cue with tr Pluto conjunct her Mars/Saturn midpoint which Ebertin describes as the rage or fury of destruction from January 14 to February 11, repeating July/August and November/December 2019 – thus a considerable setback. Plus tr Neptune denting her enthusiasm further in February as it squares her Mars/Jupiter midpoint and then doubles up the effect as it opposes her Jupiter from the final day of March onwards; plus career-losses from tr Pluto square her Jupiter/Saturn midpoint also from March 31st on and off till late 2020. Downhill all the way.
Her Government chart, 9 June 2017 12.35pm is sagging with tr Neptune square the midheaven, Solar Arc Midheaven and most pointedly the Gemini Sun from May onwards.
Jeremy Corbyn is finding his popularity sagging through February and beyond with tr Neptune square his Venus and Mercury, neither of which will engender decisiveness; though he will have a stroke of luck and relief from tension in April. His Term chart 24 September 2016 12.35pm has tr Pluto square Uranus from late March which will accompany of a major upheaval and often goes along with the end of an administration or at least a phase of extreme instability.
The EU is much more unsettled in the immediate two years than the UK – with considerable (devastating) financial problems from Solar Arc Pluto conjunct the 2nd house Neptune, exact in six months at the same time as a dead-halt Solar Arc Midheaven conjunct its 12th house Pluto; and high anxiety and muddled thinking from tr Uranus opposition the EU Neptune from late May. 2020 will see major panic and uncertainty from tr Neptune square the EU Saturn; and tr Uranus conjunct the 8th house financial Moon and square the EU Uranus which will bring severe economic pressures, fast-changing circumstances with which the EU’s cumbersome, rigid inability to be flexible won’t cope well. There’ll be continuing and significant failings and shocks through 2023/24.
The UK doesn’t hit its financial roller coaster until 2021.
All a horlicks of a mess.
I have had a vision that Theresa May will revoke Article 50 then call a General Election. I also vision Corbyn not being Labour leader in the summer.
I think British politics will change. MP’s will be much more answerable to the people they serve,once we are out of EU law.. I feel we only got the vote because they never expected it to be leave.I see Brexit as a revolution by the silent majority that MP’s have ignored for years by hiding behind EU law.Its going to be an interesting ride but hopefully an exciting one with the changes coming.
I think politics will change-I dont believe in Politics anymore and It will swing more to the right and more to the left. MP’s will be much more answerable to the UK voters once they come out of EU rule.They wont be able to hide behind EU law.So it will be interesting time. I think that is what MP,s are frightened off.Westminster is a some sort of bubble.
I feel we got the vote because they never expected it to be leave.
There is a new vote for January 29th.
Anything you can see in the chart for that Marjorie?
Thanks Hugh, Fintan O’Toole in the Guardian reinforcing your point.
‘Brexit was always going to come down to a choice between two evils: the heroic but catastrophic failure of crashing out; or the unheroic but less damaging failure of swapping first-class for second-class EU membership. These are the real afterlives of a departed reverie. If the choice between shooting oneself in the head or in the foot is the answer to Britain’s long-term problems, surely the wrong question is being asked. It is becoming ever clearer that Brexit is not about its ostensible subject: Britain’s relationship with the EU.’
‘What we see with the lid off and the fog of fantasies at last beginning to dissipate is the truth that Brexit is much less about Britain’s relationship with the EU than it is about Britain’s relationship with itself. It is the projection outwards of an inner turmoil. An archaic political system had carried on even while its foundations in a collective sense of belonging were crumbling. Brexit in one way alone has done a real service: it has forced the old system to play out its death throes in public.’
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/18/europe-brexit-britain-state-politics-fit-for-purpose
There’s always a third option…
I think you are wrong about Corbyn; I remember you have said something previously, probably more than once, suggesting his ‘appeal’ (whatever that means), is because he is seen as the saviour of the down-trodden proleteriat classes (thanks……) Change will come, but from NOT the Tories (whoever is in charge). Just so surprised that astrologers, such as youself, seem to have a toal absence of foresight regarding this; especially with the dramatic astrological changes in 2020, and dismiss Corbyn as an ‘old, hard-left, trotskyite’ – what a disparging, ageist comment. ( I’m not old by the way). Politics will change in ways that maybe you are incapable of comprehending now – just think of what Pluto will do in Capricorn (esp. when joined by Jupiter and Saturn in 2020) to the political establishment (Tories, ‘centrist’ Labour MP’s just hanging on in there). That is so much more insightful than labelling progressive, left-wing people (not just Corbyn – there are others too!) as the old, ‘hard-left’. That belongs to the 1970’s, which has died ( I don’t remember it), just like Thatcherism and New Labour have died too. A new future beckons in politics (more left-leaning undoubtedly), and it would be much more constructive and refreshing to hear from astrologers who can open their pre-conceived mindsets and embrace that fact! Currently, it seems so few professional astrologers can! It would actually make the astrological analysis for 2020/1 far more meaningful and pertinent. It is so clearly writ astrologically speaking, that massive political change is coming – but highly unlikely that the Tories (the ‘Conservative’ Party will be the figurehead for that. Pluto in Capricorn, which rules the elites, will transform the political scene forever, and it is the Conservative Party which will feel the brunt of it no doubt, with it’s Capricorn Ascendant, no matter who the leader is after Theresa May. From a down-trodded, proleteriat……
Well said.
We voted to join the Commom Market, NOT the European Union. And I remember it well. Very well indeed.
And we voted to leave the European Union. It said nothing about a deal on the ballot paper. We voted to leave the Customs Union.
And if we don’t respect the result of the referendum, we’re opening the way for mob rule.
And what I’m saying is that no one has come out of this mess covered in glory.
Agree
It said nothing about leaving the customs union on the ballot paper either.
I agree, people voted to leave the EU and I think people presumed that that included everything associated to it. Sadly many people mistakenly believed that it would mean all immigrants would leave whether they came from the EU or further afield!
Two of my relatives voted in 1975 and refused to vote in 2016 without talking to us first (I was born in 1977). They said it was a shame that there was no vote after Maastricht, but that ship has sailed “this is your future now, we’re retired. What do you want to do?”, they said. Respect to them.
Theresa May spoke about everyone having to come together, but her spokesman has made clear that she is sticking to her her red lines and won’t be flexible on second referendum, customs union, extending Article 50 or dropping no deal threat. How does she expect to find a compromise? It’s as if she just expects everyone else to back down and support her deal, which has just gone down to a monumental defeat.
I just wonder if the Letwin/Boles/Benn plan for a cross party parliamentary group to take control, might, incredible though it seems, come about. Something has to give.
There is something almost pathological about her inflexibility, which is irritating me more and more. There’s a point past which resilience and grit turns into insanity and she’s there.
Yes, completely agree. I was happy when she got the job because I mistook her for a pragmatist who would work for a solution which most people could get behind. I do think that would have been possible in the beginning. It seems now that she is just bloody minded and there isn’t anything else.
Cameron called the vote to appease factions in his party and to win back to the Tory fold the UKIP droves. It was a grubby arrangement for party political purposes imo. The catastrophic state of affairs we find ourselves in is largely about those narrow interests. Cameron is a an entitled and smug oaf who didn’t have the gumption to stick around and at least shape the conversation before he scarpered to his twenty grand shed.
Look, Cameron won an election with the promise of an in/out referendum in his manifesto. Taking account of the UKIP vote, 51% of the vote in the 2015 general election was for parties committed to holding an in/out referendum. That is not just a few extremist loons. The argument that “no-one has consulted us for 40 years” was one of the most compelling behind the demand for a referendum. In my opinion , if we had had earlier referendum as promised by Blair or Brown, the government side would have lost but ultimately we would have remained as members.
Cameron delivered on his promise. He didn’t sit on the fence but campaigned wholeheartedly for remain. And he lost. The electorate chose to believe the Leave campaign, which broke electoral law and stood on an undeliverable platform of fantasy, wishful thinking and lies.
The list of people to “blame” for the current mess is a long one, but Cameron comes a long way behind the leaders of the Leave campaign, the pro-Brexit press and yes, the electorate who chose to believe them.
Agreed that Cameron isn’t the only one with dirty hands in this, but nothing Alex said is wrong. 64% of Britons want the Royal Mail in public hands, but it didn’t stop DC privatising it (even Thatcher thought that was a step too far). A huge majority of Britons, over 80%, think that schools should be in the public sector, but it didn’t stop academisation and free schools under his watch.There is a lot of support for nationalising the railways. All of these things had more public support than an EU in/out referendum, so why weren’t we offered a referendum on those? Nobody ever asked me if I wanted to sell Royal Mail or send my children to an academy with unqualified teachers. Why is that less important? You have to ask, who was Cameron listening to, at his kitchen suppers and why was he so weak in his own little bubble? So yes, I do blame him, his Etonian arrogance and weak mindedness. For looking after his own and opening up Pandora’s Box for the rest of us.
The current situation has been decades in the making. The focus tends to be the Referendum the UK had in 2016 but in many ways the problems are the Referendums which the country did not have in 1993 when John Major agreed to the Maastricht or when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown signed the Lisbon Treaty. In many ways the British political system with its rather cavalier attitude to past negotiations with the EU has been the author of its own undoing. The power that Parliament exercises comes from the people who in a functioning democracy should be the ultimate arbiters on matters of sovereignty. Therefore any decision to surrender more of that sovereignty to a body like the EU must be ratified by the people before it takes place. Major, Blair and Brown failed to carry out that crucial step. The failure lies with these politicians and UK governments in general which in the past has basically taken upon itself to give away something that fundamentally does not belong to it. This is a particular issue when Britain’s first past the post electoral system gives governing majorities to parties on a minority share of the popular vote. It should be noted that Major’s government in 1992 only got 41.9% of the ballots cast and Blair in 2005 became PM of a government that only polled 35.2% of the votes in that years General Election. Ironically the much derided Theresa a May got 42.4% of the vote in 2017 (more than Major) and her opponent Jeremy Corbyn got 40% of the vote (nearly 5% more than Blair).
And as has been mentioned by Marjorie in earlier postings the historic UK charts from 1265 and the 1650s are now being revisited. Both of these eras related to times when the constitutional governance of Britain was fundamentally re-examined. My belief is that this is about far more than relations with the EU. At core it is a challenge to systems of government that are increasingly seen not fit for purpose
Thanks Hugh, that makes a lot of sense and I agree it was more about the past than about today. That retrograde/stationary Mars in Scorpio during the vote. I’m in two minds about about 1993, as I remember it the economy was precarious and the right wing press were particularly rabid in the early 90’s. Didn’t it come out during Leveson inquiry that Murdoch threatened Major to change his policies on Europe? I can see the dangers of calling a referendum in that time, not so sure about Lisbon.
Either way, with all that complicated history, I think it all the more reckless to call an overly simplistic yes/no referendum in 2016.
Agreed about first-part-the-post, which is why I voted yes in the alternative vote referendum in 2011. It was rejected by 67% of the British public.
So yes, I can understand, though not agree with all, of the reasons we got the result we did in 2016, but I guess I will never understand the madness of going along with it, especially right up to the brink of no deal. It’s political cowardice on all sides that started with David Cameron.
Give it a few years and Theresa May will be respected probably as a ‘good Prime Minister in Opposition’ – I don’t know anybody who could have demonstrated the resilience she has in the face of parliamentary opposition. There is no way the E.U. will give us what we want – we have committed heresy as far as they are concerned! I agree with what the earlier poster said about them seeking to deter similar wannabe leavers. To a degree, the Cameron administration were right in having a referendum in 2016, but they were negligent in not setting out the perimeters properly perhaps a 60:40 – and that should have tried to lay out when Brexit could mean; they didn’t and nobody really expected that Leave would remain. Result a total mess and complete headaches for all and a country plunged into purgatory for the duration, government tied up in knots and an opposition that is sorely lacking – joy!!
It’s a bit hard for the E.U. to give you ‘what you want’ when there’s no consensus in the U.K. as to what you want.
Given the presumption that the Withdrawal Agreement and the Chequers Agreement were both watered down and EU approved versions of what I imagine was already asked for! Who knows what is going on and what is fact and what is leaked by any of the relevant sides – it’s very personal and objectivity has gone by the by
I realise that this is simplistic but the UK has had two Libran PMs in a row now. Librans love to please everyone and are adept at seeing both side of an argument and make excellent foreign ministers/diplomats, but for a hard driving negotiation like Brexit the UK needs a leader with a combination of fixed and fire planets. It is true Thatcher was a Libra and was no pushover so it depends greatly on the individual chart. The whole mess was started by Cameron in an attempt to please the euro-skeptics – it has pleased nobody and in the end he and May have both ended up looking duplicitous. The Europeans are clearly going to make Brexit as hard as possible if nothing else to deter others from doing the same. A Leo, Aquarius, Sag or Scorpio is what is needed, but waiting in the wings is Boris a Gemini which as clever as he is, is another sign that is hardly a byword for the tough and uncompromising traits required. But cometh the hour cometh the person – so maybe someone will rise to the times. (By the way I would have voted remain if I was British).
Theresa May reminds me of the ancient Greek story regarding Icarus.
Her epic decline has been pitiful to behold. JC hasn’t been much better.
There have been no winners in this ghastly debacle, and that includes Remainers and
Leavers alike.
Throughout the entire farrago, the only and awful certainty seems to be that not one individual in a position of power in Westminster is remotely up to this job.
Stepping aside from who is to blame, TMay has survived another No Confidence vote. Or did I get it wrong…?
She did but that was for other reasons since neither her own Tory Party nor the Northern Ireland DUP want Corbyn in (opposition leader, far-left, old Trotskyite).
“The UK doesn’t hit its financial roller coaster until 2021.”
Brexit or not, I’ve hard time understanding how The British Economy could hold on this long if The EU and especially The US Economy fell as predicted. International financial markets are simply too intervened. I guess The UK public sector could hold on for a while given low level of national debt and, in case of Brexit, there’d be a possible competitive advantage given the pound would tank. But I doubt it would keep Real Economy going in Britain for 2 years.
Thank you Marjorie. I don’t understand why David Cameron isn’t being roundly blamed for creating this awful situation. Is it just good old misogyny?
I hope you don’t mind me saying so, but many previous Prime Ministers promised the UK electorate a vote on whether to stay or leave the EU.
David Cameron just had the courage to give us the referendum promised by PMs of both political wings of the UK.
Plus we were never asked if we wanted to join the EU in the first place. We were dragged in without our consent.
But it’s certainly a mess and no one has come out of it well.
Well I remember voting in1975. Perhaps you are too young to remember!
I remember voting too but it was after we had already joined. I think Labour had promised a referendum in their manifesto as the Tories had joined without one.
Yes Janet I voted in 1975 too, and it had taken some time to join as Charles De Gaulle was against the Brits coming in anyway and their request had been rebuffed twice during the 60s before he died. So it’s not as if no one knew what was going on. There was no referendum under Heath who took us in, and the referendum was organised by Wilson. However it was originally sold to us as an economic arrangement, that’s what we were sold, nothing beyond that.
Depends on your point of view. I don’t think it’s all that courageous to go with the populist option, quite the opposite in fact.